--- title: "An interview with Maya Shavin: When you have the force, nothing is impossible!" description: "In this video series I interview people that are amazing at their job in the tech industry. I try to find the tools and best practices they use to shine on conference stages, contribute to open source projects or when they deliver high quality work. Beware, this is my first interview." date: "2020-01-24T10:03:49.000Z" url: "https://timbenniks.dev/videos/tim/109-h7qmarrblw8" youtube_url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7qmArrblw8" playlist: "tim" image: "https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H7qmArrblw8/maxresdefault.jpg" tags: ["content-ops", "frontend", "developer-experience", "product-strategy", "devrel"] --- # An interview with Maya Shavin: When you have the force, nothing is impossible! In this video series I interview people that are amazing at their job in the tech industry. I try to find the tools and best practices they use to shine on conference stages, contribute to open source projects or when they deliver high quality work. Beware, this is my first interview. Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7qmArrblw8 ## Transcript sound check take one before we start I need to address something that I said in last week's video so in the last video I called myself a programmer and I said I would create a video series about programming for programmers I've received a whole bunch of feedback from this from sincere proper feedback to hilarious things to men mansplaining me what happened here so I've since learned that the word programming is just kind of a no-go and there's a couple of issues with this first of all in different cultures programming seems to mean a little bit different things especially in North America the word has a bad connotation to it and the second issue which is a bit worse is that it's very much gender biased right bro is for bros for men mainly so I can imagine if you're not a bro but anything else out there that you might have thought hey but this is about programming it has nothing to do with gender it's just my mind that does creative things why does he make these videos for Bros that's I can imagine that's not the best feeling especially if you're from North America and you're like hey but programming is a pretty negative thing to talk about right so I will hereby apologize for the fact that I use that word because these videos are meant for everybody I want you to feel like you can just watch these things without being judged even if that was not my intention if that happened that's just not cool so I will not be creating a video series for programmers I will just be creating videos about web development they are for everybody so with that out of the way let's go ahead and introduce my next video so this week's video is an interview it's my first one so please bear with me I might say some strange stuff or I talk too much please leave a comment if you see something that be better I will be interviewing Maya shavon Maya is Vietnamese but she lives in Israel where she is a senior web developer for cloud Inari in her team the R&D team they need generalists and Maya is one of those she can either do accessibility or CSS or you give her JavaScript or C sharp ever anything is amazing at it on top of that she is a speaker at conferences she makes training videos she's a technical writer she organizes offense she is amazing it has our big output and all of that output is really really good it's all of super high quality so in this interview I hope to learn about a bit of backstory what drives heard how does she do so much other she combined family life stuff like that um I hope that with these interviews that I can actually distill the tools of the trade of people that are super amazing at doing what they do so if you the fewer are actually someone who wants to go into the community and do some content creation or stuff like that hopefully we can find you some answers from the people that have done this for a while that are super awesome at it so let's waste no more time on this intro let's get to the interview so Maya you moved from Vietnam to Israel that's a pretty big change so how did you feel about the cultural differences and can you elaborate on how that was for you well it's a huge difference in culture it's like I I did have a little bit of culture shock well not a little bit I have a huge amount culture shock I went from the culture that is really polite and respectful first and you know I treat each other with like smile and being being polite most as possible to a culture that is nothing like any way okay like hey this is your niche culture with people I really spoke really speaking they're my like they speak they're my out loud and the treasure will respect but respect it in a different way like in my culture we don't really speak out what we really think this we think of other people and feelings and other people I'm actually moved at the same time not to hurt people the other way in Israel people just speak out one day whatever they think regardless what the other people view you know like complaining and sometimes it's very annoying and the language is very strong so I always feel like the first two years I will feel like they are fighting to each other oh wow that was my next question like how long how long did it take you to feel like yourself in this culture well it takes me quite long I think I take me on and off like some up some part of the cultures I really like because I've been trolling with it my whole life it's like I only like to talk about to talk to speak mine in my mind out loud so I when I got to Israel it's really it's really cool because I'm already I can set it out but in some point I preferred to be polite the trick to be to trick people being nice but being nice doesn't mean I'm going to get what I want so it it's been only love like one day I feel really happy one day a few really I'm really connected to them to to to everyone to the culture the other day I feel I am completely up and I just don't want to be there anymore it took I think it's took about yeah one year have a two years after I star after I stopped going to university in Israel I get to start it with the local people then it getting more more easy getting easier and easier for me to adapt into the environment wow that's the best medicine I'm really interested in this part we got ice I did it the other way but relatively in a smaller step I went from Amsterdam that's a bit much a little bit like Israel I think the word France and the change is smaller but it still took me like six months to at least feel you know so quick question on how does it work for you that when you get feedback at work it's the way you give feedback different from Vietnam in Israel well in general is very different but it's not necessarily for the worse let's say at work in Israel if someone tell you that they get they someone tell you that they that you doing a bad job which mean you really do a bad job okay hurt you they they say at that porn fine you can argue about something really passionately like I can argue with a person about an approach at work I don't agree on and the other can protect themselves saying okay this is not okay this is why I think this is way you wrong like if they will tell you you're wrong you're doing the bad job but after they saying that it don't mean any bad thing and they don't keep it in their mind and going later to to spread it out behind your back I see oh wow sorry this this is the culture I should go to it's like how I am this is like the Netherlands maybe it's meant to be have a visitor so let's go to another question so you do a lot in the community of front-end and I say a lot and all that you do is actually of exceptional quality can you explain how you actually managed to do everything so well well keep this night sacrifice something right now no I'm joking actually yeah I do spend a lot like I woke me one of the good thing about me that do things very fast ok so so we save my time in doing coding and doing stuff compared to any other person but in general yeah you got her so I schedule my time economy from from the morning I start walking really early I'd normally start my day about 5 o'clock Wow I start okay fine the morning and walk home again my kids my oh my kid stuff ready making breakfast setting up the school stuff leave it there so by 6:00 6:30 when they wake up it's already ready and they just need to get dressed and go so by 6:30 so 7:00 I only start being able to sit down and do my walk and when I do my walk I I do it constantly like lunchtime I only eat very fast and then I I don't really like to spend a lot of time in lunch like I true the most easiest thing I can eat and then it like 10 minutes 15 minutes and go back to complete my walk and after that like when I finished my walk I can start working on my personal project do things organized according to notions like I have notion application and I divide it into some color board and like test weekly and I chew we test and prioritize this today how much time I spend on that and I just do according to that one it doesn't work more sometimes not all the time but most most of the time it got me to complete and balance out my work and normally I go to sleep around 12:00 1:00 o'clock something like that Wow so if I hear it correctly it's mainly your organizational skill that gives you the space in your mind to be able to be great I guess yeah say if you have kitten in the night time you need to spend at least 2 hour 1 hour 2 hour with them within the store even being able to shower making food for them luckily I have a husband that is super cool that he be willing to help me with most of the housework so I have more time dedicating to my work but I still want to be with my kids so it's have to tray up somehow I still haven't been able to finish all the things I wanted to do and still have a very big backlog test but yeah just get going don't I don't press I don't try to pressure myself so much about what can I got but everything I do I try to do as the maximum level I can at that point all right so it sounds like you have it all really together and I think that's super cool so you really kind of balance your home life and your work life and but that sounds like every time you try something that it's amazing and good but I can also imagine that that might not be true because we learned the most from the stuff that might not go very well so do you have one of those stories that that thing didn't go well but because of that I'm now here and here and can you maybe elaborate on that have a lot of story like that say sometimes they say I have a pro I have a lot of projects going on and I used to have a lot of project I wanted to store and I started and then I learned I cannot do monthly testing at one time it is multitasking it's just a mirror you don't really you cannot really do two things at the same and I tried to do it and I end up with two projects each of them have something that haven't finished and it's not in a perfect condition and in the end it's just hurt my performance and the quality I want to deliver and the two project also didn't finish on time so you know it's like and then I realized I need to bet you can read up one at least put one on hope and focus on only one and you focus on the minimum that the most important thing I want to do it do it fast and concentrate on it don't get sidetracked or something and then move on when it's finished it is the process of learning also and sometime when you do quick coding they say I write a really fast solution for bug or a feature and then it works of course work but you know in JavaScript you quick solution doesn't mean it's going well right no it doesn't go well and in then after two weeks or month I came back they want to add another picture I came back and I saw the co and they're like holy God what did I do here okay I'm not happy with and they have to spend more time rewriting it and understand why they have a performance issue here a lot of things like that make me give me the experience and give me help me learn a lesson here that do things fast but do things fast in within a reason not to do it just to finish it and go move on to the next one sometime need to drop a bit that's that's also reason why a in the in 2020 I I tried to drop down some of the part of what I've been doing like speaking and other stuff to focus more on what I really like okay this is great we need to capture and everybody should try to use this so when you think about let's see how can I ask this because this is always an interesting question so is there something that you are actually super good at that you're really not known for like is there a superpower you have that you use behind the scenes I guess I'm just a normal person like anyone else oh I think I'm grateful because one of the damn grateful because I'm I'm a fast learner so I can I can learn something some concept big faster and I learned by actually playing around with it and it doesn't take me a long time to play around with something and also when I learn something I learn I shall learn to deep which mean I don't just go me I if I don't understand something I'm going Google don't see you I get to the crown unless that's something I don't like but name if something interests me then I will just go inside deep diving inside and even can come up with an idea for an article so I like to one stone for two bars well you just did it right we try to record this thing I couldn't figure it out you googled it in literally ten seconds you knew what I had to do so I think maybe your superpower is a fast brain that finds the right stuff I think so it's like my brain is pretty fast so I can think of a solution very fast or I can think of a way to do tweak stuff but but also sometimes slow it like it's slow in a very weird way like if you drop me in the middle at Junction I will never get lost but if you ask me how to navigate out to go to an address whether go north south east I don't know how to do it Wow okay it's a situational shall we say yeah so I actually have a kind of a similar approach myself I also have a fast brain generally but I do sometimes notice that I I go too fast with the brain because I already because of my experience as a developer I figure something out very quickly and I know kind of yeah in the end it will just be that thing so let's go there quickly do you have similar issues with that yeah I do have similar issues I think all of us have a similar issue the more experience we are there's faster with coming to conclusion and that's not only good mr. father in the other day someone asked me about our book in JavaScript and I don't remember what it is but it's something that I I remember I have experience with it and I'm sure that's only one solution to solve it which is not a solution it because it's like somehow like that the browser doesn't support it and another in there and it in the language doesn't have a try for that something but then India so I come to the conclusion very fast but then in the end we found out that there was updated there was another way which I didn't know so you know every everything like that means it take times like we know that we have experienced some time we need to slow down a bit not go check our answer before we give the answer back yes you're preaching I like this so in our world as developers there is a lot of men around us right I'm one of those right so but you are excelling like you're doing really well have you ever noticed any type of bias towards you being a woman in tech and being so super successful it's hard for me to say because I actually in the countries a inner inner environment that luckily I don't really have any bias over it in the other way they try to try to recruit more in woman into the industry but not a lot not enough so being a woman in the industry still very unique in the other hand it might in my team I'm looking for several companies and most of the companies so far I'm the only woman in the team or the only second woman and the team and the team were like seven or eight developers so you can guess the ratio yeah sure um and they don't treat me like I'm a woman they treat me like a dude you're one of the guys yeah like we don't really talk about gender and they don't really open the gate for me they don't treat me like a flower they tie up chalk around my melon man so I don't really feel the bias okay but I don't really see the difference the bias I do see you at myself as part of the imposter syndrome that sometimes I'm not good enough but just the question of feeling and sometimes hell because it makes me feel I'm not good and that's why I need to try harder okay and being a woman is such a theme like of course men and women have different personality traits sometimes clearly there's a big mix of these things but are there any things of being a woman in a team does it have a positive impact on the team do you think yeah because different no matter what you how you put it we are different we not the same physical strain the physical like emotional thinking and we are not the same so let's say in a team that you have men a woman sometimes the woman would think in a more careful way and more and more careful and more organized in the minutes like like in my team lemon is more like jumping into combine into action writing on the tools and and make it a lot a little bit like how to say messy if it's the way it is or given the different approach to to our to a solution but the woman because we think differently so we can look at the matter in the opposite angle and then we can provide more insight that the man cannot think of it's like two side of the problem we cannot live without one because you cannot really develop a product only one way if you need to have other people from other perspectives right so it's only we are good with being organized oh you are clearly organized oh that's great right I think we can all use that a little bit so I know you're doing a whole bunch of conference talk and stuff like that so do you ever notice any of the bias between men and women in this conference are you saying well not one of the most commonly ever I heard that you got selected because you're a woman Wow like how do you feel about that later I were like okay cool so you can be a woman so too bad for you I got to use whenever I get together well the thing is me okay once you speak you're amazing so you're showing other women they can do the same but I get completely if they select you because of you're a woman that must be a little bit shitty can you imagine that let's face it some conference nice diversity yes they can invite you into a conference because you are woman and you're working in high-tech things that is how they under under raid under estimate the person capacity but again if you're a woman and you need to go somewhere to Expo yourself and and then you have you are not experienced enough to talk like did not do not have experience thicker so you got chosen because you're a woman and you give me was even the first opportunity to talk in a conference just because you're a woman why not it's your Vantage you've got to take it can you prove later to the tudo to the audience to the conference organizer that you are actually doing a good job so that's what I'm looking at the thing like take take taking one people thing is they're disadvantaged turn it into an advantage get to you get to make a use with it but in the other hand I mean I think in the other hand if you get chosen because you're not a woman or maybe because you're not a woman but because when they they do advertisement or they do commercial and MouseMan for for you they emphasize the fact that you have a woman in tech that's also doesn't make you feel good when you have to learn to bypass it like just laugh at it move on this conference organizer also need to to make sure that they are how to say they appeal to the community at good be born the stuff so I love how well you look at this this is I think that's the only way to deal with it I guess and nowadays you're so awesome at it you've spoken at so many of them do you still notice this this this difference or you're good down I can just get there on a CFP I had to be honest I'm a little bit ignorant so like ignoring like unless I really care about it which I agree don't I actually enjoying the fact that I'm in the middle like I enjoying the fact I'm being tricked equally but I also enjoy the fact that someone opened the door for me you know like you guys you're like I am easygoing I mean if I guess I liked it and I'm playful I don't really care whether I'm going to select it because of what they wanted to come and speak I have the time to come and speak so I speak and when I go there I got to be treated what what important for me is that when I go to conference I got to be treated as me and with much with the same respect that they have for all the speaker we are all in the same level and that's more important the other than that why what make them choose me to be a speaker it's less important it's important that they chose me I'm grateful and I'm going to try my best to deliver the speech yeah sure not fun yeah exactly so having fun that's a nice bridge because I think the first time I met you was a conference in Amsterdam a very big few GS conference so how did you manage to land that gig as one of your first conference talks well that is not a small feat that's a proper conference I was looking for try try it myself to be a speaker and conference and you can always make me feel like you : the one who stand on stage are really awesome and be a steering and really good in in developing so it's hard because I'm not experienced I'm not going now how it'll be there but I want to try and I don't know how to start yeah and again I'm given time I'm lucky I'm really lucky what say I'm lucky enough to be in a company like clouded away because the chance the chance to me for me to speak in BMC time was given because someone you know the wrong some doctor on he were looking for a speaker that can speak in vmstat them about view and in the whole team that we have in in Croydon airy and the only one who knows view alright yeah and he came and say okay anyone want to come to via Amsterdam and like yeah that's great if I want to try to speak there my team leader asked me on so and I like why not but why do I lose you maximum that someone will make fun of me and on social media are laughing about me talking there's no one no no one no me I don't never mind nice block and now you're like a standard speaker in all the conferences so now that you are kind of established and that you're even choosing okay let's do a little bit less this year just the quality ones so what happens if let's say someone in my team was a bit junior and he won so he or she wants to really also do the same as you while as files do you have for them to make them a better speaker or maybe like how to get out there how do people get to know you well if you want to get out there we started with the right in the fighting something that you really want to talk about a subject a topic and then it's done our and then you have to ask if someone your team they until you know you as a speaker and you already have experience so need to ask you for helping in preparing the paper helping they have also kind of Google a lot of Google materials on how to write a good paper for CFP and how to write a good title for talk I did the same thing I also go for I'm google it and I got of some sticker that she write down what step she did and then she took it and try to apply at mush I tuned to that according to death tender and and I got yeah slowly and better and better in writing like home writing a lot of more than thousand words or decryption I write about 200 words for description and still want to see what's to be able to tell what i want to talk about so that's one thing is there's a lot of people out there that willing to share that size so if any if your junior developer want to star they can actually Google first or us some some speakers already experienced and just express themselves that they want to speak and then one of us one of the companies beaker in the community somewhere along the way cannot make it to a conference a conference conference always look for speaker without speakers there's no conference now so we we always try to recommend more and more people that we know that can be a potential good for example my case I couldn't go to VM View Amsterdam this year and I always already have a shake in control right so I couldn't go so instead I could recommend daemon which is my co-organizer DHS as well to take my start now he going to speak yeah I saw that I think that's super awesome that he actually gets to do that yeah this is the first time for him to do it I'm stuff is flow in the proper conference like in um sit down so it's like also like speaker like me I'm happy to create opportunity for other people because I will give him the opportunity so I need to pay it back to someone else or so that's how we get the community grow exactly and it's great for your career growth as well because you can you can teach so you spoke about writing quite a bit so what in your mind makes a good let's say writer in the development world like if you have to write some technical stuff or maybe explain stuff what is it that makes you such a good writer and because you also teach right so how does that work well I'm less like a teacher I honestly am a very bad teacher so it's I try not to teach face-to-face I don't want to be I don't want to be responsible for someone else right now oh no no I will hey I enjoy writing a lot and we may write yeah I think the more important thing when when you start writing especially writing tutorial or writing I'll say introduction or 101 or but keep in mind that you're right in to 11 news on person are really junior person like even the person they have a very basic English because everyone in the developer world is fluent or native speaker English speaker right and we all need we all if we use a lot of term that no one understands but may I also done this I only got to know that CEO is mean the command-line interface is and there before everyone talked about like everyone know what it means but not every developer no one admitted without using we don't know it and so you would say keep it simple this is kind of the best approach okay think about people who think of thing about YouTube when you are a newbie like the first time when you try to get into tech and every time when I write an article I try to remember what I feel when I was first read an article that I have no idea what we're talking about even though I say before basic plan for beginner and yeah and it keep me going and trying to make the worst easier and then I took the article and I dumb it to another programmer or I accident and the person who had a very basic steal English tried to read it and try to tell me whether wish which was hard to understand so anything that's that's the best way to do right proof okay wow so you're kind of using your own community to make those articles better you understand I'm not a community-made my connection yeah sure yeah around me we have we have C++ programmer that always try to make fun of me that why are you doing not run on real programming self oh really Wow yeah so I know that you're doing like a lot of things right and you just explained to me like all this organizational stuff so let me give you a challenge so what if you only had eight hours a week to work what would you do in those eight hours that for still make you successful in your job and all the stuff you do so what is the essence of what you would do well well our week yes every challenge so imagine you have just one day this week let's say you're on holiday f1 day and people shouldn't notice any difference if you are there or not in our community let's say what would be the most important part for you to do well because I'm still working so the most important that I need to complete my task at least one or two days I need to like - one or two hours I need to dedicate to my work and then because in the community seeking more or less more or less not so not require a lot of attention because it's quite a lot of preparation in the time yeah actually not enough I'm dropping it oh yeah sure sometimes you just drop something right sure yeah and so I spend about another two hours to two hours or three hours to write a blog post aren't is to start with the research about something I really want to learn so I have about three hours left to to decide what I want to do maybe an hour to try to organize the next Meetup maybe a for the kids now is work it's work yeah yeah let's beast let's be fair yep so I have three hours left yes so I wanna I would spend two to do research and what I want to learn something I want to improve and then two hours dedicate them to my open-source project okay mm-hmm so that actually that that kind of works right so yeah let's almost wrap it up I have one last question that I stole from Tim Ferriss Tim Ferriss is this amazing blog post guy walk post oh he writes blog post but he also does yeah and he writes books and he has an amazing podcast and what he asks generally at the end of his interview I'm just gonna steal that from him so if you had a billboard like super big and you can put it anywhere you want what would you put on that for people to read so it's not really commercial just whatever you think is important in life what would you write on that um I will write there nothing impossible nice because it's kind of true I guess if you're lucky it's happen my my my love my slogan like my motto since I was 20 until now oh yeah I learned I learned it from one of my managers in angel over in my I used to work in Intel and one of my managers every time when I told him that it's impossible to do this that you do that hey tell me one thing there's nothing impossible every day have a solution it doesn't matter if you look and look it look for it enough like think about enough so that's actually cool because every time when I got into from that moment on every time I got into a problem then the first thing I think is that I need to look at from a different angle that's not important where I need to find a solution and when I can accept the solution in now or not with my problem okay yeah I mean whether I want to trade it for some solution requite TRAI so it's the it's the matter whether I want to go for it I don't want to go for it it's not it doesn't mean that it's impossible it means I choose to make it impossible so it's helped me a lot it's helped me in moving to Israel and Helmut to stay in Israel without all the time when to go back yeah sure it helped me it helped me go through my my university days there Dave and Israel studying with all the other Israelis in Hebrew where I had no idea what the heck I've got away so you had school in Hebrew even though you didn't speak it that's amazing I like I wanted to adapt to the local environment and I cannot go in on non and being like international person and I don't want to learn the international way cuz I'm in Israel in the South nation so I should learn the proper way of some thinking in trying to add that much so I decided to just chime in and tried to get into a local school we study in their own language so it's pretty tough because I didn't know any in Hebrew and except knowing math but that's good enough and and and I do interview about man and I got into it the first you were really hard but yeah I can imagine you get used to it anyway I realized you don't give up everything's possible right so yeah for me it's like yeah I'm not so good with languages so I can order my drinks in French and that's about it no I can know a bit more but still is there anything you'd like to share something we haven't discussed yet a lot yes we did in 40 minutes we discussed everything is fine but the sharing like one of the things that I wanted to share that I saw a lot of people trying to be everything like trying to do a lot of things and look at us people are looking at me or they will talk to me like you can do you do a lot of stuff you can do anything I want to be like you doing a lot of stuff but honestly what I want to share is a dog okay unless you are not having super supportive husband or wife or you don't have a you don't have kids you can do and mush and you can but if not do one thing at the time and trying to to be good at it first and trying to organize the timing for that it's or else you will end up not knowing everything like we always talk about fun stuff yes exactly you cannot be good in back-end and front-end at the same time you have to be one expert in one yes so do we have actual full stack developer do they exist do you think that is the front end also maybe know like know how to use in in HTML or write deep end so yeah I can count himself I got phones that but you you and me both know that there's no such thing in my opinion no the other day I did a whole bunch of front-end work on a react app and then I integrated this into some huge CMS system and I did all the build scripts and I caught some Java to put everything together and they caught me whoa you're a full stack like no I just understand the build script and I want to I just understand the system and it doesn't mean I'm gonna write an amazing job you did test right so you know how we know how to use the tools to make us look like a porn star yes expectancy management how do you look to the outside pretty important again it's important but to yourself I'm not sure because they say all of those stuff is not considered a good experiment good a strong solid background say we go to an interview or we go into a next job how will you answer a JavaScript basic question if you don't have a story crown on it they're not going to ask you how to use this tuner that tune they are going to ask you how to build that tool exactly so don't say you're a full stack if you're not kind of well and you know a bigger front-end then you can call yourself oh yeah these are the most safe ones because if I as a front-end guy say I'm full stack and they ask me some c-sharp question I mean I was I was I don't know then cornerback in because I will not walk in with ads I walk in with software in the desktop so that's still breaking the server you know consumer to be an expert in c-sharp Java nodejs developer but it's going to equal time to be able to be a from a developer because you know we didn't work different style we got to know how to UI works how the browser works what is the performance you need to write a code I don't you complication responsive that you can we have only like nine hour 24 hours a day how we're doing up - together yes we all right exactly so I really want to thank you for being my first interviewee this is awesome because I've never done this I'm always on the other side like people ask me stuff because when I'm on a conference they get interviews and or I do an interview for someone who wants a job but so this was my first time so thanks very much to give me the opportunity to ask you stuff and you helped me a lot so that's super cool that you're so flexible Thanks thank now it's my have to be happy face my honor to help you do it so that you can erase your yes I think that you are doing awesome no thanks even yeah I mean I don't you want up the most favorite person people that I've met in conference I'd really oh that makes me so happy we just talk about collaboration right all the time and that's the first time we do it but I do remember like the first time we met at that conference in that whole speaker's room there were a lot of people all these big shots the guys from Knox Avenue was there but I only wanted to talk to you because you had so much interesting stuff to say and this was super cool so I'm looking forward to more collaborations and to actually create something together or maybe we interview other people again you know there are so much out there we're gonna make it happen for sure yeah yeah exactly ok so thank you very much and yeah that's it I think we're done yeah [Laughter]