Composable without Compromise w/ Casper Rasmussen

I'll I'll um put an intro video [Music] [Music] foreign what is up welcome Casper how are you doing great doing great Tim how are you doing awesome I'm great uh I just heard you came from yet another podcast so you must have your Talking Hat on for you for us today I always do I always do no always happy to share my experiences and our experiences collectively yeah exactly we're quite close in what we're doing anyway so um so what we'll do for this stream I'll kick it off with a little bit of industry news and we'll have a bit of discussion and then once we're done maybe you can introduce yourself see what you're doing and then we just dive into the depths of composable stuff so here we go so let's start with some industry stuff because um we're talking a lot about composability and now that that has been solidly uh been in place for a while um as it turns out not everything that's being built at the moment is kind of easy to work with compostability turns out it's not that easy to actually figure it out but we might talk about that later in a second and so at uniform where I work where we're also hosting this live stream is we're working in this digital experience composition there's a word again in that field and it hasn't been as you know known and we feel like we're kind of the first one or among the first ones to do DXE and so we had this whole thing we call DXE assembly in which we actually had a few Keynotes about like what is it some product releases things like that workshops and so Casper have you heard about this DXE thing and if so what do you think it is from your side I have and in in my simple terms it would be about composition management and how you actually orchestrate and drive experiences and start to orchestrate also the data that powers does so it's the glue fundamentally of the entire market and composable architecture and the interesting thing is at this DXE assembly we talked about glue code and we almost started calling it The glucose monster because you kind of as a developer don't really want to be writing that glue stuff you kind of just want to do the fun things where Lu should be hopefully taken care of Elsewhere where you sign an SLA for example right makes things a lot easier and so if anybody is interested in that you can go to uniform.dev DXE Dash assembly to kind of see all the talks um that we did and see if that product actually fits for you because it might not and that's something we can talk about later as well um then um there's this really interesting article written by dris which is a Belgian name or Dutch maybe and he's the co-founder of CTO of aquea and um he has this whole thing like he calls it like a digital or composable digital Manifesto or something like that a very long read and in it he kind of outlines the the new direction for Aquia and therefore Drupal and this is a pretty interesting one right because we've seen in the last few years there's multiple like I wouldn't call them Legacy systems because they're still full-on working but they've been working for a long time like 10 years they've been amazing at the top of the market and Drupal is one of those and the open source variant and with accurate a paid one but then you have others um like sidecore Adobe now optimizely there's a few of them right and they're all kind of going into this space and saying hey we are composable because we did this this and this and so Casper how do you see this happen if you put your Mac Alliance hat on like are they actually composable or is it close enough or like what are your thoughts here so obviously I need to call out that there is a distinction between composable and then right like that's also a spectrum in itself yes there being a spectrum between best of sweet investment rate but that's the detail for now one of the major things that I feel will be very interesting to follow with these types of shifts and changes that happens within the the typical best of sweet space is the ability for these businesses to coexist alongside with other Solutions in the architecture like the openness of the attack and also their approach to Market and I think honestly that's what's gonna break it and make it for them and I know some of our friends at psycho as an example like are very much embracing the fact that they don't need to be the only logo within the exactly I think that's one of the the most important characteristics of companies that can actually play Within this type of an architecture that is to acknowledge that you do not necessarily own at all and neither are you the only vendor within this uh solution of a potential business and I'm looking forward to see how that's going to go for acquire and also for Drupal but I do see and of course I'm also proud that these best of sweets and these very established Enterprise types of of logos within the tech space are starting to embrace what we stand for as the Mach Alliance and are starting to align much closer to what the businesses of today are expecting of digital technology yeah exactly I think in a few years it's all gonna be like one happy party with everybody there and you can still have a little bit of this monolithical stuff going on if it's contained and you just connect to it everybody's happy and I guess where it will make or break is how easy it is to actually connect to this and how if it's too tightly coupled it might be complicated I think that's lonely yeah and there will certainly be certain uh characteristics of that integration that need to happen both within the vendors multi-portfolio meaning the way that for instance cycle starts to integrate some of their data capabilities with some of their content capabilities but also between vendors to make sure that you have a necessary amount of flexibility and you can also shift and change your mind so it's it's going to be interesting to see when some of this is really being put in action when it's being implemented in Enterprise companies and when you start to see it driving a bit of omni Channel experience too then I think it's truly going to be put to the test yeah and um I guess um they cannot just say hey this is our new Direction and alienate 10 years of customers and that must be a hard place to be in right you cannot just go okay this is the direction now we're going to go that way and bye bye for the rest you have your legacy stuff that we will you know will give you updates for a year and then you're gonna have to buy new things yeah that's hard so of course there's going to be hybrids it's I guess it's normal yeah and so it needs to be exactly so maybe this is a nice Bridge into kind of what we wanted to talk about today but before I go into that maybe you can talk a little bit about you yourself and what you do because you have so many fancy titles let's talk about that well I'm happy to uh to give you a bit of background uh my name is obviously Casper Rasmus and I'm the president of the Mach Alliance and I'm also Global SVP of Technology about tech where I'm heading up our strategic business for Mach and composable I'm basically born and raised in the world of digital Commerce to be very honest with you I care a lot about a customer's experience and I care a lot about a business having the right Tools in their hands would be flexible and agile and to unlock whatever business opportunity they need to unlock as the president of the alliance I lead the strategy of the organization but clearly I do that alongside with a member-led portfolio of companies that kind of collectively Drive the market space forward and really help clarify what it means and what it's not and then about I guess I said I lead our strategic pillar for Markham composable so I also work hand in hand with a lot of international Brands and big companies as a part of their marketing composable Journey so a lot of Consulting and advisory but also implementation support and really appreciate getting my hands dirty as well because that's where the magic happens yeah and that's where it gets interesting for me as well because of course falltech is one of the founding partners of the alliance and do you see based on the DNA of how fall Tech was let's say a few years ago did you have some kind of clashes sometimes based on the type of customers and type of service file they could offer um versus how the Mecha Lions sees things of how architecture needs to be was that complicated um no I wouldn't say and it's still an ongoing process so it's not because it has been over complicated up until this point but we approach it from what we call a best for you attitude and we go across the entirety of the spectrum of best of sweet to best of breed and we understand that it's not a one-size-fits-all whether you're talking about more traditional monolithic channel-centric solutions that are TurnKey or if you're talking about you architecting your own uh you composing your own dxp and thereby taking the best of breed animal native approach no one size fits all meaning we of course still do business across that spectrum and I also think it's important that we maintain the desire need to do business across that spectrum because different businesses require different solutions and ultimately comes down to their aspirations their internal maturities um and and there is space and room for all of it I think it is pretty fair and that just goes into your your comment about Aquia early on that some of the potential standards and practices and the approaches to engineering that you need to take with regards to composable and now also start to influence how we do business within the traditional practices within valentect it could for instance be how we actually do engineering and development within the psycho space we need to start to embrace some of the same ways of working some of the same standards and approaches to architecture because of course the expectations from a business standpoint as in our clients are starting to actually greatly align to what the Maha Line Stands for meaning they also expect flexibility they expect swappable components that they expect something that provides omnichannel orchestration like some of the same qualities are absolutely being expected even though you are starting to see it being delivered by a different type of a vendor and none aligns vendor I really like hearing this because I remember it's only a few short years ago that I worked at faltec where we just started to become more Global and then we tried with a bunch of customers we really tried like this Value First approach that you're mentioning now like it has to fit you and I think prior to that it was not always that necessary because lots of clients just had this license off one of the three four big ones right and so it's kind of like we can do amazing business transformation for you by helping you with your processes and there's just the platform that we work in and when I started we kind of shifted a little bit to that value first thing so maybe I was more in the frustration side of things and now that kind of we have leaders like you actually pushing this so hard that it's much more normalized and I love seeing that and I think that's where the future for agencies is because what do you think about all these agencies or like all these brands that now get much more in-house stack because they have to actually choose all these systems right and they have to do their homework and they cannot choose out of share photo in a board room anymore yeah and so honestly I I I feel it's a necessity at this point in time and it's something I embrace even though you can look at it and say doesn't it go in and compromise the service revenue of an agency yeah it does but we're working on behalf of a brand we're looking to commit to grow their business right yeah and internalizing a lot of that IP over time is an absolute necessity like even sometimes we talk about how a B2B Manufacturing Company going forward needs to be equally a software company it's quite a mind-blowing the type of exactly crazy apparently they need to build in order to thrive in this world we help them accelerate and introduce that capability and we help them evolve as a business but we equally help them actually grow their own um I I guess skill set internally their own standards and processes and their own capabilities to actually be a software company too should all companies be software companies no likely not but there are certainly some companies that are looking to differentiate through the Digital Services where that becomes almost a prerequisite in order for them to thrive yeah and so now looking at these kind of companies that are like making their own choices and working with companies like falltech so to be successful in this kind of let's say a Commerce space what would they have to do now or for the future that's actually different than they would Let's do let's say three four years ago foreign agency so this is going to be fun yeah there you go there you go one vital step in in my experience is to understand where you want and must differentiate as a business meaning understanding what the customer expects of you and then also what role does digital play in your business strategy going forward is vital and then you need to execute accordingly meaning waiting for you to make a difference for your business because you need to migrate your CMS so because you need to migrate your website before you can do anything new that's like more something that was present in the old world I would say where now we're in the era of possibility where composable and Mark can really unlock very creative scenarios of where you can actually put some of this technology investment that businesses are doing to the test and put it to Market and thereby Harvest and collect potential revenue or potential value from it so identifying what matters to your company sorry identifying what matters to your customer where do you differentiate as a company and where do you stand out and then start to execute against it and really put that to Market I think that's the difference that is present today that wasn't a possibility five years ago if you were to do that five years ago you had to be a digital native company you needed to pay the Amazons I said well it had all of the means they had all of the skills in order to execute in that way where composable and also what the Maha Line Stands for by bringing forward like this ecosystem of members that can help you accelerate some of the core capabilities you need that really makes it possible for um for for businesses that maybe previously couldn't even do it or even consider doing it exactly and I remember these kind of projects where we were with this a company that was also quite digital first but they just had Legacy software and we're going to do a whole new redesign and they're like yeah we're not going to wait for you for two years to rebuild this thing we want to see changes every month but we didn't have that much of the new stuff yet it was just coming and so we had this enormous complexity of actually training the teams on the old system to implement the redesign and then also at the same time build a new system where we just built a new design and then every few months we just swap out a page or a component and it would feel like the same site only the new one was ridiculously fast and the old one was very slow but they looked the same the amount of effort that went into that and then not even with the best results because you can imagine that these Legacy systems just had a different approach to how you release and how it runs and so that's actually where it becomes quite interesting like if you use Mac or composable technology you don't just win because of the technology right just putting these things together isn't actually going to make it very successful yet so I had this recent Epiphany when I was watching one of the Mac Alliance live streams with a customer I don't exactly remember which it was but it was a really good presentation from one of the customers that used Mac Tools when I looked at the website I was like did you really make a new website it's kind of did you and then the guy was talking about the fact that their whole internal process had changed their I.T team was suddenly liked again they were basically instead of saying maybe in six months we can add like a wish list or something they would say do you want it this week or next and that conversation changed everything and so what is your view on how kind of this agility and the process gets better or worse I don't know with Mac technology what do you think um so it's really the difference between time to Market and then time to value and time to Market I think is a and people can prove me wrong here please comment if you see it differently time to Market is about potentially migrating channels and putting digital Estates or properties to Market and thereby like launching something whereas time to value is these like incremental small steps that you can actually go in and execute as a business through this notion of best of breed and very flexible of an architecture so how can you potentially go in and unlock more relevancy in your search and how can you go in and do more targeted merchandising in the context of potentially a legacy comma solution but you're starting to implement or introduce that best of breed technology in that ecosystem meaning you're starting your composable journey I think that's the big difference to how these Solutions should go to market going forward and that's why I want to draw the line between time to Market and then time to Value because the steps within a plan to composable is much more granular than what we've typically seen in a more holistic monolithic type of a dxb space and then when you're starting to talk about potential Innovation or agility your release Cycles becomes much smaller the fact that you can start to actually influence just a subset of the systems that are involved opposed to kind of changing the the gigantic monolith and and kind of wishing for the best as you release out that change it's those types of differences that matter and it means that you can put things to Market you can release often you can do it with confidence and you can potentially also embark on multiple different uh like programs have changed at the same time so you don't need to sit and manage dependencies and you don't need to sit yeah and kind of cluster your work into major packages and make major release Cycles so it gives the flexibility even in how you work as an organization and how you're implementing change across your architecture we also see a lot of teams that are just doing more Rapid Release cycles and uh doing faster Innovation simply because they actually go into more of a cross-functional collaboration model where you start because of the nature of the architecture you start to actually see that you can work vertically across the architecture and all its layers you start to actually do Innovation on the front end on your orchestration within your SAS and your microservices all at once and you do that up against the customer's Journey meaning you start to actually release up against it could be awareness and attraction it could be Discovery and findability it could be transaction it could be post sale and self-service like you're starting to really set up teams that are unlocking value to the customer in a particular stage of the actual customers Journey so there are many ways of kind of approaching this but it all comes down to the flexibility and the decoupledness of the architecture so you don't have two teams stumbling up stumbling upon one another and needing to orchestrate the releases into bigger chunk and thereby going down that major release type of path that you often see with monolithic Solutions because there is a dependency that you need to manage I've seen it so often that a huge release we had to be rolled back because it took so long that in Asia they started shopping already you're like oh let's roll back otherwise we cannot sell and now for example where I work at uniform we are also very composed in our own software and we sometimes do a release during a demo and it's fine because it's so tiny it just works and so I would almost say here that time to Market is dead I don't care about it anymore because you can go to market very fast with a crappy system but it means nothing if it doesn't work so you can do time to Market very fast once you've set up your whole granular fancy composable system but it's so normal now maybe we should stop talking about it I guess I don't know yeah I agree maybe it's it's yeah maybe it's a bit too radical to put it that I like radicals yeah maybe I'll I'll step it back a little but I have some other things that might make it quite radical because you just spoke about all these layers right of people that you can release in the vertical and all these things have to kind of work together which the more compost you get the more different all these things are like when you're at least in a monolith you also have all these layers but at least they're all contained in one giant giant maybe three chunks and they need to release together that's kind of yeah they need to reach together that's a big difference but the thing is if something goes wrong I can point the finger to the fender and say yes it's it's broken and they kind of have to scramble this with their support or with their Professional Services to kind of look at what you did and fix it but when you have all these layers separated and one breaks it's your fault because you implemented it a certain way right and so the more I worked with like composable tools and build projects and I've done a a ton of them by now the more code I wrote to actually make them stick together kind of like and it almost felt like I was building like a lovely Lego piece but then actually using kind of hot glue to make sure that certain ones stick together really well because they always go together and then other ones not so much and then you start scaling because maybe you have a multi-tenant site now but then that one thing that I glued kind of needs to come off again but it's really hard to do and then you've kind of created your own problems and so how do you have you seen this kind of stuff or maybe I should ask it differently like this is the thing right everybody can see this in a different way if you are a developer you can be very idealistic and say just write good code so it's all fine but not everybody is Netflix right we kind of need to normalize this and so how in your mind does the Mac Alliance look at this stuff first and foremost we help businesses these are the clients of Bell Tech and the likes understand what Solutions are actually fitting for this type of an architecture and solutions are meaning software vendors because there are certain characteristics within a tool like it could be a uniform or it could be a tool within the content space or the search and merge space and so on that makes it just more compliant and fitting with the type of architecture we're talking about here meaning in order for you to ensure things are decoupled having web Hooks and having the right types of Integrations and apis for an event Grid or an event system is a really good idea because that's the only way to make sure that your destination is not aware of of the source and so forth and so forth so what the market lines help is just to demystify what math is and thereby also potentially shortlist or at least certify isvs as an example as being fitting and compliant with this type of an architecture meaning you at least have the opportunity to implement it according to the principles and according to the expectations of what Maha is clearly beyond that comes the implementation too where it's important that you're also working with folks whether those are your internal teams or those are your partners within for instance the agency space to also make sure that it's being implemented correct you're absolutely right in saying sometimes you can even see that monoliths are kind of emerging out of projects because things ending up being too tightly coupled or things ending up not getting implemented in the most desirable way and I'm sure most solutions have compromises because at the end they must at the end of the day or it's Perfection is is also Utopia right but there are certain places where simply you need to make sure you're kind of applying those best practices that we stand for and also making sure that you're working with the right vendor or the right team or someone who has done it before it could be internally too to make sure this is also set up and configured and implemented in the right way is certainly also important yeah I guess the the flexibility is key everywhere and then you just have to be smart enough to link things together and so I have this kind of cheeky idea about what a CMS should be nowadays and it only works in a few cases and it and it doesn't work in other cases because sometimes the CMS like when you think about a prismic or a story block they're amazing to stay inside it because that's their whole thing with like amazing preview and stuff like that and then you have others that are a little bit more open and wide ranging but the mindset of people nowadays because there's just no other way is you build your page in your CMS and what that does and I've spoken to lots of developers about this thing it's like okay so then for somehow people want a central place for things because we're used to that right the decentralization feels awkward because everything is away and so these headless cms's of course their scope is relatively small I have my domain data off my website or of my brand sits there where the content lives let's say you are an events website so you have venues you have artists dates and connections you can kind of amazingly content model that in a CMS but then when you build a page and a new event is coming up next week you want to show that big on the home page right and what everybody does is they add a checkbox in the data model of the event to say it's now a feature defend and over the course of two years there's going to be lots of drop downs and check boxes and then when you want to go multi or Omni Channel you know you make an iPhone app or whatever all these checkboxes make zero sense then you redesign these check boxes makes zero sense but in that same vein you like okay but I need to get my products on the page let me just integrate hard coupled into the CMS with some integration field to that CMS and then from there we also do an algolia index or whatever you see what I'm sketching here is kind of the spaghetti of everything hard-coded and change is almost impossible but the thing is people are used to do this in cms's but in my opinion they shouldn't do it because that's also now how they make their money the more links and connections you make inside the CMS the more expensive they get and this is nothing against them because it's clear business model it's amazing but how do you see that what would be the solution to that because if you do everything with code rather than you know updating everything in the CMS your content editors cannot do anything anymore they just have to call you to say hey make me this page because I cannot do it in the CMS but then the developer is busy it's like I'm in my Sprint I buy so how do you solve that so I would categorize it as being experience management it's the contextualization of all of the data that sits underneath like what you're trying to establish as a company would be a channel agnostic ecosystem of capabilities right this is about your promotions it's about your product information it's about your assets it's about your your your content and so forth and so forth it needs to be contextualized somewhere there needs to be some degree of Channel centricity present within the architecture it just should not sit in your central systems of of of data like your CMS so experience management where you can actually start to combine those data sources and start to orchestrate them up against the actual customers experience is where that should sit is that for every business no it likely isn't again because we've learned this it depends on on on the level of flexibility you're looking for it depends on the internal maturity of your organization and how you think content lots of companies have their teams and I'm talking about marketers and merchandisers structured up against the channels meaning you have an e-com manager for web and then you have an e-com manager for retail and if that's the way you're structured as a company then it's going to be counter-intuitive to you as a business if you start to talk about Central content because who's going to own that who's going to optimize it who's going to refine it who's going to maintain it so there is some degree of organizational change on the back of some of this technology transformation that we're talking about here in order to get to that type of an architecture you're talking about where it's like create once deploy many from a Content standpoint but in my mind it sits with experience management as a term like I don't know if it's the right term or the wrong term I think it's so early on in the infancy um of it going to Market and it being known as a definition but it's all about orchestrating those data sources and contextualizing them and being able to optimize them up against the actual Channel and the customer's Journey yeah what I've noticed is once you have a little bit more scale it makes more and more sense like at uniform where we do this stuff for the people that don't know that are watching we've actually had customer conversations where it just didn't fit for them it would be amazing to just have a CMS where the volatile content and your domain content Channel specific just sits together but then others that are bigger we've spoken to people that have teams that approve content they literally their only job is to make content specific for behind the scenes stuff they approve the languages all the things and they have teams that organize the search results this shoe cannot be next to that bag and for them they have this very rich um you know ecosystem of where content lives the only thing they need is a good system to put it together and often these type of Brands if you look at the you know the luxury space or the fashion space they don't even care that much about the flexibility of this component is here and I can drag and drop it because the precedent or the king of the fashion Empire has decided this is where that lives and so there's a real um you know a fine line to find and once it works it's amazing and if it doesn't it's hard still but what I love about all this is if you have like this agnosticity of these sources they're just there and you select them suddenly because you're so agnostic you have all the information in your hands and you can build let's say a preview that's Universal you can do personalization that's Universal you can make one SDK that talks to everything and then you have so much Freedom it's very interesting you just have to see how it pans out I guess yeah yeah and I'm looking forward to see how successful we will be the collective we in enabling this through low code and no code and I read an article earlier today where somebody was was calling out like this phenomenon of low code no code and where it actually makes sense but I think experience management is one of the places this degree of orchestration of data up towards the actual channel is where low code or no code as a strategy simply makes sense because it enables the markets of the business user without the interference of the involvement like we've seen and this is in working with the big brands of the world lots of back-end for front-end type implementations that simply end up in this orchestration platform meaning it ends up being like this thick in your architecture exactly it has all of the great the best intents of the world in order to kind of orchestrate your SAS and microservices environment but it also does it by hard coding how that data is actually coming together exactly and this is where your name kind of normalizes it and that's where it is hopefully nice yeah and it's the danger that Brands and businesses just need to be mindful of and go into Eyes Wide Open to make sure that you don't end up creating almost like what feels like a sticky monolith in that experience orchestration um and part of your architecture where it simply requires like I.T interference or involvement each and every time anything from an experienced standpoint needs to be optimized or changed and it's a fine balance it is exactly and I have two ideas on that one the first is if the agency were to build that layer they can become very sticky for a very long time so business-wise that could be smart I'm not sure your customer will be happy but that is one of them and the other is we're going to need the agencies because that's where the expertise is a lot of expertise sits at agencies and it's it's very interesting to kind of work with agencies to see for which kind of customer does this fit and will actually go for it because it is a paradigm shift of how people are used to working and we have a question let's see if I can put that on the screen for us from Adam so who should be more accountable for the orchestration layer development teams or marketing teams that's an interesting one so what's your take there um I honestly think the accountability shared I know that's the easy way out of that question in my opinion it's 50 50 100 but it has to it has to be because the marketing team is the the beneficiary right it's the team actually benefiting from the orchestration layer they are the user of it and they are the ones actually making sure the orchestrations are meaningful for the customer whereas the development team of course have responsibilities and accountabilities with for instance it's it's reliability it is a very essential layer in your architecture and I know you can go down Federated architectures and all sorts of things to kind of distribute the um the the potential risk of of of having this type of a layer in place but there is absolutely an SRE element to it too that you can't take away from from the development side with observability with um having just the right level of insight into how it performs and how it operates and so forth so I need to say 50 50. I'm afraid I'm going to say the same and the thing is um like if you have this orchestration or dxc layer you kind of the idea is that you have your design system full of components with all like your whole language you can actually map that to your DXE and then attach all the data that you need from all these different sources to the fields that these components want even if they're smaller or bigger but that somehow has to be built by a developer and a design team and a ux person and a Storyteller and so everybody needs to be involved the the lovely thing is that it has it's completely agnostic so a developer can choose where to host it or do whatever to connect to it nobody cares that's what developers want they want that freedom um but then on the other hand if you are a marketer and you want to make a new page with five things from this e-commerce and then a search result and something personalized you don't have to call anybody you literally do it you go through a workflow and you publish it and so that's it's it's 50 50 but it makes it easy yeah and so we're running up on time so um who is this not for all this whole composable story that is a loaded question too um I want to say clearly it's absolutely not for everybody meaning there are certainly businesses that should not Embrace this type of a direction simply because it's potentially too complex for them to manage what we typically see being like common characteristics of companies that are successfully embracing it and also transforming their business through it would be a multi-business model for instance companies that are today B2B manufacturers that are looking to go direct to Consumer and are looking for a piece of digital infrastructure to basically operate both ways to go to market it could also be multi-banner retailers like where you have the degree of scale in your business that you need to operate multiple businesses at the same time so you st but you still choose to align them up against common Technologies and then it's clearly also Global Brands where you start to see their where you start to see a requirement for Market fit and flexibility in the way the actual solution operate in a distinct Market that could be with regards to operating a piece of digital technology that is both fitting for APAC but also potentially in North America and still having room enough in your architecture for both of those experiences to be relevant to the customers for instance your payment options as an example or the way you actually compose your experience to bring another one so those are the types of characteristics we typically see of companies that are successfully transforming the business through this type of approach I guess if you have skill that is more than just I'm making a blog or or something right like because there's there's lots of companies in the mid Market that don't need that much even though they think they do they don't really need it they can take it like they could take one CMS that they love and integrate one or two things and actually be quite happy and I guess the moment you start to scale it up just a little suddenly you're you're finding these issues because there's also a thing where if you are a Content editor and you're not particularly technical you just know how to really tell your story if you don't implement it the right way you're gonna have to understand all the systems that connect but like I've worked with global companies where content editors didn't really even know what a link was imagine explaining to them this is now an algolia index and you have to make a search query like these words are pure Blackmagic and so for these kind of companies where where you have different teams working in something you might want to consider something that gives an interface that's so simple that kind of just takes care of things and that's in the DXE sense of course and of course if you have changing requirements you want composable that's that's that's easy yeah and and sometimes I also see if you have multi anything it could be multi-channel multi-language multi-market multi-brand multi-business model multi anything then Bach and composable could also be for you simply because you actually have a piece of architecture that can operate and embrace the flexibility you need in order to be more than one thing as a business so that's also a way of looking at it just to kind of like tick the boxes and say Flex exactly all-encompassing but it's typically in the sense of scale right meaning that it's scale and this omni-general thing is such a big thing like for example it's the simplest example like I like to learn different like coding Frameworks and languages as a front-end developer for example so I have one microservice that gives the composition of my pages I built that one time but I have a website in next I have a website in next I have a web website in Astro which is one of those newer ones they just all talk to that same thing and it's completely composed and if I wanted to make like a react native iPhone app tomorrow I could and that freedom is amazing right the data lives in the right place anyways um I want to thank you so much for your time I know this is the second interview of the day for you and it's getting a bit late are there any closing thoughts on the Mac Alliance or maybe a fall deck or something you want our viewers to learn about anything the only thing that just came to mind that that is actually an addition to what you just said is that the developers experience and how exciting it is for employees within your business to work with technology has a pretty huge effect on Talent acquisition and the type of marketing that you can tap into so also remember there are angles that are not just commercially oriented or it's about Innovation and all this sexy stuff but there is equally also benefit as a business when you're talking about just your ability to attract really good solid digital talent and that's where Maha also plays a vital role in my opinion well yeah I don't know any developers that want to go into a legacy system and then just fix bugs like most developer well there's some I I know some of them I'm sure that's fine they're happy but then others if like the higher your talent density is the leaner your business can be because you need less rules people are more senior they love their job it's everything becomes easier and happy people make better products let's be honest um with that bombshell let's end it thank you so much for your time and um let me just put this one on um if anybody wants to know a little bit more about uniform you can actually join us on Discord if you want to um I would love it if you did you don't have to but it would be cool and so for Casper for you it's I guess um everybody can find you in LinkedIn is there anything else you want to share of where people can go uh obviously valtech.com or Maha lines yes there you go exactly you're almost always more than welcome to reach out if you have anything I'm more all right curious so I think we're all very curious about all this fun stuff thank you so much and hopefully see you soon cheers yeah likewise cheers