The Dare Dialogues - S01E02: Mount Stupid

like that ah we are live like this right hello everybody we are back with the Dare dialogues after a semi disastrous first episode where we almost lost Sonia we will talk about that later hopefully um we're back and this time we are going to be on Mount stupid sounds weird right but you've been on it I'm sure you have been um um so how do we start maybe we should reflect back a little bit on last week son yeah that's a good idea and we're not going to go into the detail how I was lost in the Dutch Countryside and soaking wet and couldn't get in my car and all of that um thank you too for caring I appreciate it that you considered calling emergency services um yeah I think it was fascinating because we we had thought about the format and we had this idea of let's just do it let's Embrace that we'll learn as we go along and I really appreciated the feedback we got lots of positive feedback on the idea of walking around right um but then also some feedback that we heard loud and clear that maybe it wasn't as structured as it could have been I think that's how one of our British viewers phrased it which if I translate that into Dutch German is you guys were all over the place right I called it the dumpster fire essentially CL right and then and then why did you guys not dare and that was interesting right because we had the intention of saying the hard things and then it was a little intimidating doing that in the first episode so we got to rent not really we did not rent L did a bit yeah did I oh well let's do better this time let's do better this time that's right where are you guys by the way oh yeah I I was supposed to say that you just told me okay so I'm actually I'm in the south of France where at any minute now the sky can turn black and Hill will fall but for now it's nice and blue so Leon where are you I'm in hilam close to Amsterdam Sonia oh yeah I should I say that too I'm in a nature I'm back in the Nature Reserve um in the very north of windy Holland and Leoni knows my exact location in case something happen well yeah we need to know this time we cannot lose you again I'll find you thank you yeah so um we agreed that we would actually take a dare topic this time yes and um let me introduce the Dare topic well we called it Mount stupid and um it sounds a bit harsh right like it sounds not very nice to call someone stupid or something stupid but it's I'd almost compare it to the wonderful uh title of the book The subtle art of not giving a [ __ ] um it sounds harsh too but when you get into it it's it's actually really it's a really kind and well thought through ter um so it doesn't sound very kind yeah let's revisit kind if you understand it it might makes sense right it makes sense it makes a ton of sense and actually the harshness is just to get your attention exactly um so Mount stupid is part of the uh Dunner Krueger U model which is um um uh a mental bias that people have based on their level of competence versus their level of confidence so as people grow more competence and they grow more confidence at the same time that's a really nice and gradual um development but in the case of their uh uh of this model the the the thing is that people uh misinterpret what they can do because they don't know what they don't know so the less competent you are the more competent confident you are in this model um which creates a situation where you think you know [ __ ] when you don't and that exact spot is called Mount stupid because you're ignorant which means that's where I was when I invited you both to do this and then didn't realize we actually had to prep a little bit I you weren't I think we might have been yes the question so the question is Tim you having been this public speaker and having recorded tons of videos live and not live and Sonia and I being pretty new to the game did you realize when you asked us to do this together that we were on Mount stupid when we said yeah sure how hard can it be oh not even close that's why I was stupid no I was like oh these two are we're good immediately fine no prep run did you remember I posted this on think then I didn't even put our names on yeah and it kind of worked though that's the problem right it kind of worked and then you do it and you're like oh we focused a bit on the technology so we look good like this but then the rest we didn't really think about and you know this is a very interesting thing that I have had before where I don't know how I think I probably did four or 500 videos hundreds of live streams all that stuff so I have this experience right yeah and then sometimes when you know people relatively well like we've SE seen each other in real life and we talk quite a lot and then you think let's go fine and I've had this before with others like one time specifically where we basically have some the people with the same job so we thought let's make some videos together it's going to be a you know we knock it out of the park horrible horrible guess it doesn't like this is M stupid is so easy to get to because I really didn't consider that people might have different styles different ways of coming to a conclusion different ways to communicate what they want and so yeah there was a a really good explanation of man stupid is basically me but you guys a little bit you know the thing is also the the thing is also though afterm stupid when you realize what you don't know you go into what officially is called the valley of despair yeah right oh yeah when you have this feeling of oh my God this is all so hard I'll never be able to do that I was firmly in that for a few days since the last episode right then get better as you learn like when if you if you get yourself through that Valley of Despair and you come up onto what's that called slope of Enlightenment Gartner calls it I don't know what the official term is oh really that's a Gartner thing no no the D and Krueger model Gartner we can talk about later hijacked a little for their hype cycle yeah oh yeah exactly I wondered this thing about oh boy this might be a little feisty but I'm going to ask it because this is the D dialoges so in my work as especially a tech person selling technology or working with it and buying it everybody always goes with the gardeners and the Foresters of this world we're going to look at where it is in the quadrant and then we're just going to buy this thing MH how much Mount stupid is there at Gartner when they put it in the quadrant oh boy oh boy boy that's another episode can we hold of course but I do want to give the context of asking this as a developer not as a business analyst or a product person but as a developer like because there's different concepts of how developers think versus brand people for examp but we can leave this one for another episode because it's kind of feisty isn't it well what is really what would be really interesting to to to bring up why we care about M Mount stupid and why we run up to it run run into it in our daily uh work and I think I think you bried that perfectly Tim when you said although you have had done all these videos and you have so much experience super close to where you are very comfortable you will run again into into a situation where you thought you had it but you didn't exactly I have an example of that go ahead go go yes so I think the the the thing that got the three of us together together was the mark Alliance right yes and actually I was majorly on Mount stupid when we were looking to launch the mark Alliance initially because what I thought was going to be hard was that anybody would care and getting people on board who would want to join as well and setting up this nonprofit or and all the paperwork and all the legal stuff so I knew that was going to be hard so I got experts in and but then I've been a product marketer for like 10 years and more before so I figured launching this thing we got that right and then it was six weeks before the launch and I maybe we need some branding maybe some press release we'll whip that up right so I caught Leoni I know so I called Leon and I was like yo we've got this crazy idea uh got all the paperwork gone uh we want to launch at shop talk can you help us and then Leoni how many line items did you have in the list of questions you sent to us like well yeah there were a list of questions but the line items was more like things to PR this is what needs to happen yes before we Boom Valley of Despair like items like yeah crazy stuff right now luckily I had Leon but I should have known right like I wasn't entirely incompetent in launching stuff and I didn't or I didn't think of it do you think it also affected your budget long term that you didn't think about this and it had to all be done in six weeks or was enough to just have it the same no so two things happened two things happened um we we luckily had sufficient budget for what Leoni regarded minimum viable and then what also happened is we were very aware of what we needed in order to make this great and then the pandemic happened remember we couldn't launch at shop talk we had to wait until two months 3 months later and by that time so many other companies wanted to join that we could actually fund the um the launch as we had to so that it would actually be meaningful and impactful so had we launched a shop talk maybe it wouldn't have been as amazing as it was launching in June there you go interesting yeah yeah so when we think about like Le who's driving by that's a scooter or something so so Leon you were talking about a thing that's called I forgot the word but it has effect in it can you explain that a little bit it has effect in it wait let me look at I remember was it was it that um that's was it the attribution effect oh wait let me check let me check so um so why so we started talking about why we care about Mount stupid so much and why we run it why we run into it and that is you know ignorance is perfectly fine I am ignorant on a lot of things um in my in and everybody is which is perfect but once something that you have a level of ignorance about becomes part of your work success then it becomes then it becomes prominent and it becomes something you you you or people around you will actually notice um and we exactly and and that I think that is where it gets interesting so where do you notice it in your own uh work life and where do you notice it with the people um around you so if you if you meant the attribution effect it is so you don't know that you're on Mount stupid until you're no longer on Mount stupid like so that is also a nice concept right like it's great to be there you're ignorant and you're not aware which is part of it the minute you become aware you've actually fallen off the mount and start to see what you didn't know um when you then learn new things and and then you think too quickly that you're now an expert then you're up again in I'm stupid so or that and it gets it gets even more pronounced when you realize oh there's a lot of stuff I don't know and you get an expert in to help you and the expert tells you what to do and then the attribution bias is when things are going well it's because I did it when things are going bad it's because someone else screwed up right that's the typical thing we we humans tend to at the world so an expert tells you what to do and then you think it is your success you say goodbye to the expert and whoop back up moan stupid fascinating Concept in my career I was so far up M stupid I was annoyed by the experts that happen and you know I let me I feel that I can talk yeah this is the thing right because we're in like if you're part of the ma allance you're like like at the top 5% of that space so you kind of assume you know things and so maybe I can make it slightly more something people can relate to if you're like it's like well it doesn't have to be just a technical person but I used to work on all these huge Brands and we would make websites for them and as a developer that has have done that up until that time let's say 10 15 years you you kind of know what the outcome will be for certain things like a form or a checkout or booking a plane ticket you kind of have built enough of them to say this is probably good and then you get so annoyed with ux people and people who are super experienced in or experienced design that they go through all the things to actually learn what makes people take and click that box and buy something and so I would always kind of just ignore them build the thing and they would catch up with whatever they had done and it would kind of line up and I had the luck of that happening like five times were huge customers but you don't realize if you don't think about all the things and go over all those processes I couldn't answer a single question of a customer I just said yeah I knew it but that means nothing you lose trust and also if you're not that lucky and it goes wrong you don't know why it went wrong and you don't do anything Innovative because you always build the same thing that you know kind of works and now I'm not really doing that kind of work anymore and I see it happen all around me with people that are quite senior and you almost don't realize how much privilege you have as a guy like me with a beard in his 30s that says this is it with a certain voice and it just happens holy crap man stupid is all over the place it's everywhere well yeah and and to Leon's point you have expertise now that allows you to squat when others are on mountain stupid yes but then the challenge is what do you do about that I'm just right so do you call it out let's make that a dare do we call it out right so I personally appreciate when people tell me I am on M own stupid right it's nice if they do it with kindness but I appreciate it do you do folks that are listening do you want us to tell you yeah this is the thing is it culturally based because for example I'm Dutch right so and this is a bit sounds a bit black and white but we tend to separate the feelings from the facts a little bit so when somebody gives me a fact that is you spelled that name wrong or whatever I like okay we fix it I don't feel too bad no but if you're in front where I live now everybody's philosopher everybody's feelings are in everything that they've built so when you point out that mistake you step on their part literally right so you have to address it in a different way but I guess the more senior you get the more you appreciate I'm hoping well and and I think let's challenge that a little bit because I think the people that struggle most with wanting or being open to realize they don't know things are people that are super smart and are used to the fact that they know [ __ ] true um on the other hand I have to say and and Sonia is a good example of that if you're open well I know if you're open to realizing oh wow I didn't know that like with the Maran example then actually growth then you grow extremely fast and I think you'll be more successful over time than the people that were super smart to start with and felt super privileged and know it alls yeah yeah and it's especially hard when you are like a CEO or a founder and people are used to sucking up to you right you're amazing you're fantastic um people dare to tell you sometimes yeah and then if you're this ignorant and you are a founder or a CEO or someone high up your words have real weight and you completely influence your whole system that works for you yeah and I I think when I hear all this stuff it kind of boils down to something quite simple I guess people who are watching this could maybe also try like if you're quite Junior you tend to solve problems and you say hey I solved the problem but then you talk to somebody who's more senior it's like no you solved a problem right that's a huge difference and so when you think about that you can apply that to code you can apply that to launching a product to other things and maybe that's what keeps you off M stupid or to you both is do you have to go over man stupid to actually get better you need to be there maybe it's okay to be there go ahead as long as you're willing to come off and either listen to the people who know or read three books over the weekend and really invest fast and hard yeah and I think I think the question is also I I think you need to come off a little bit and you need to feel some pain in order to be open for the question of okay so how hard is this actually and have faith that an expert that you have to trust actually does know better right and embrace the fact that what you thought how hard can this be might actually involve a lot more work and often the sign that someone is not ready is when they push back right away and say oh this is like way too complicated like and don't ask don't ask why do you feel this is necessary what happens if I don't do this and if that if that chain of thinking isn't there chances are they're not ready they're not ready for advice they're not ready to be helped into that Enlightenment the sentence that I see as a flag of someone being on Mount stupid and not owning up to it yet is when they say let's not over engineer this when you have just shown them how it should be L that one they think like oh my it cannot it cannot be all these things it cannot be that yeah and so with that in mind have any of you both or maybe even in the chat ever been to a situation that I like to call the come to Jesus meeting where you actually have to tell somebody you're like on the Summit right now you have to come down because it's not going to work we're not going live next week has that happened before or to you perhaps I I yes same um let me think about a way of saying that in an anonymized way um I think when someone approaches you and says we're really having a challenge with getting our core messaging and differentiation across and nobody understands what we're saying and then you give them different words and different models and different ways to articulate not something new of course not but you know their core position their core messaging and they come back with what you're basically saying the same thing you're just saying it in other words is that what you asked but okay fair but that's when I I do need to have and I have at times this conversation and like you said remind me what was your challenge remind me how did you want to come out of that challenge right so and I do try to do it in a way that is not alienating and not rude as much as I can but there needs to be an element of if you do not see the value in this I don't think I can help you right and yeah that's not a fun conversation to have as an adviser Tim no you can almost like I I park this back to like being in University to become a nurse and what you learn I did that 20 years ago and what you learn is bad news delivery because imagine you have to tell somebody they have cancer there are certain tactics you have to follow to not be a complete [ __ ] yeah right and this really helps and this type of situations right feedback discussions are huge oh yeah absolutely absolutely did you have moments like this Leon where you had to say dude woman well um yes um and it I think it is the biggest challenge a consultant has um and I and I I have them a lot because you know you you have to go you have to also give and take a little bit because if if I'm applying my standard 100% then you know they will always see that as over engineering but if I go back too much to what they would accept because of not knowing um it would just not be good enough um so it's it I think it's part in in of what you have to deal with and what you have to talk about but realizing that this is where someone is um and I would just really love it for the other people to see it when they're there and I try to see it when it's when I'm there um I tried to learn to swim 10 years ago and I thought how hard can it be I'll just do this city swim in Amsterdam two kilometers in the canals I can swim I won't drown but I realized in the practice for that I I I will I won't drown but I can't really swim it's 10 years later and I'm still taking swim training and I'm still allow swimmer um there you go but um uh you have to you know I wish if if the the Dare for me for of today would be look at yourself look at the moments in your in in your professional life when you think how hard can it be and investigate if that is M stupid ask an expert to find out um and share it with us if you want oh yeah I love love to um and I think maybe we should share an example as well in this next week if we come up with one exactly so do we like we we wrote down like the Dare of the day which is today and so we wrote paradoxical becoming aware so that means you have to go to the summit and then come down afraid that's how it's going to have to be no is perfect right so if you're there you won't see it so it's a bit of a shinger cat as well you have to open the fridge to see if the lights on um so do that the cat is dead or not if the cat is that yes totally yeah um all right so I think we're coming up to our end but I feel like Sonia had something to say still go how do you know that I was just thinking can we make can we make a case also perform out stupid very quickly because I do think there is also in the right situations Beauty in the ignorance of how hard it is I think there's many entrepreneurs there's many um aenda uh you know people who invent stuff oh inventors there we go yeah um who wouldn't have started on their mission had they had any idea how painful it would have been right so I do think the critical point is that when you're sensing this is really critical for my business just as an insurance policy ask someone you believe you can trust that is an expert just to make sure right um because once you are at a certain size in your business you can't afford that mentality anymore but I don't want to Dismount stupid entirely no and I am on M stupid all the time and if I wasn't I wouldn't start the things that I start because if you know what front how painful they're going to be you know there's no way you do it yeah and Sonia you just you just nuanced this whole half hour by this previous answer you gave which is kind of fun no no it was great because it it made me think about like I used to work for this super high fion luxury Brands and there would be like a creative director the president of this company that would just stand and firm this is good and there there's literally nothing you can say and then when you sometimes when you then follow that it is actually good not always when you think about technology versus design all this stuff and so that's the one end where that generally works if you're good at your job so that's kind of knowing you're on Mount stupid and then like screw it or stay here it can work but then on the other hand when you I've been in this place where I would pitch something and they would have an external person or a hole of Accenture come in to see if your pitch is actually good and then they would say yes after they give them 100K and then you do your project I've done that and that happened and that was like a very annoying M stupid so there's maybe there's you know Nuance in what type of M stupid you can be on yeah yeah absolutely I guess bomshell it's done for today or yeah go go go no I think the Dare is also when you see someone else on Mount stupid and you know they're going to get themselves into trouble approach it in a clinic way actually we have Matias in our chat who I used to work with at faltec nice to see you dude hello Ras anyways right as we're about to close are there any last parting words and Sonia from you both of you I'd love from hear from folks if we were a little more structured right now and um what they would love us to talk about and was it daring enough like is this a good dare like dare to share your Mount stupit oh yeah I love to see the mount stupids off people imagine if a lot of people shared their M stupid and we wrote like a little PDF and just send it around to all the startups love it pretty cool like in content content mode right away and just to make sure if you want to feel safe you want to share your Mount stupid but not your name on the PDF that Tim just mentioned that's also fine exactly PDF so old school I work at CMS for God's sake yeah anyways what create a page exactly we did some sort of page um so thank you everybody for watching but also both Leon and Sonia where we spend a lot more time in actually structuring this thing it felt good we did lose anyone I only had hail on me twice oh didn't even see that was so much grace oh well I was Sheltering in one of the um the farms you you'll see it back when you when you back at one point anyways um thank you so much for watching everyone this half hour went flew by which is good stuff and so we'll be back in two weeks and I don't think we have a subject yet right no do we no but I'll be in France Tim nice I'll be on station in France you all right everybody thank you so much for watching and we'll see you next time cheers see you all bye oh yeah