Vue.js Global conference: An interview with Debbie O'Brien

in this video i have the privilege to speak again for the second time this year with debbie o'brien from next i'm not sure if that was an english sentence but i guess you you get the gist we are speaking about her conference talk for the 4gs global conference that's happening in august of 2020 so this video is kind of a collaboration between me and the organizers of vgs global these are the same guys that did the excellent 50s amsterdam conference this year so i basically interview the speakers we talk about their talk so the organizers can cut out a little bit to use this promotion and then for the rest of the video it's all up to me and to my guests to talk about whatever we like so this is a pretty long discussion but we go right in and there's a lot of cool stuff in there so without further ado this is the interview with debbie o'brien for the fujias global conference [Music] hey debbie good morning how are you hey how are you i'm good thanks all good thank you so much for joining so this interview is in context of the view global conference so we'll start off with talking a little bit about your conference talk and after that we'll go into some other stuff this is just so the the guys can cut out a little bit and use for promo so can you um speak a little bit about your talk okay so i'm obviously going to talk about nooks right because and nooks is so amazing so obviously i'm going to talk about nooks and i want to talk about one of the newer features that has just come out which is the content module so basically my talk is going to be based on how you can use the content module um for either developers or for actually using it to build like say documentation sites or for people building their own blogs because it can be used you know for either for or for both um so basically yeah just kind of going through how conte content module works and all the cool features that it brings okay so what will people learn exactly um when they've seen the talk well how easy it is to just like use it to basically get started with nook so if you've never used nooks for example um how easy it is to use nooks and cranny your content using contents you don't have to learn how to use a cms and you don't have to learn all those other things that maybe you don't even need right but also not just that but anyone else who has a documentation site that needs to kind of like be updated how quickly it is to move from say if you press for example and i do like viewpress i'm not saying anything bad against it but migrating from viewpress for example to nook's content is so easy it takes seconds and um i want to showcase that as well just in case people do want to you know migrate to next okay there you go um so in your title you kind of mentioned that it's um it's kind of like a headless cms or like what do you mean by this exactly yeah so basically it's just a way of kind of saying that your content is the like decoupled from your actual code right so now you're not gonna have your content in your code you're gonna have it in like a headless cms um but instead of having an actual cms you're gonna you use the content folder using the content module so basically your content is separated and i think that's kind of a cool feature because it's um you know a lot of us when we're developing we're building our own websites and we don't have the time sometimes or we just don't want to set up a cms for our content and we just want to you know quickly write something and it gets complicated and too difficult and then we just like don't get around to doing half the stuff we want to do and with nook's content well it just makes it a lot easier so we can do that and i want to just showcase how easy it is to use so that you know people can decide okay maybe like cmss are great right and there's some brilliant ones out there and they have their place so it's not like this is taking over the cmss but there are moments when you don't need to set up a cms and you can just use this and especially in the developer world especially when we're creating our own blog posts and especially when like documentating documenting plugins modules etc so it's it's more focused on the developers themselves and not potentially for like bigger clients right exactly it's more for yeah for you and me and for any developer out there who just wants to get their content out there quickly and easily so when i started using nexus was like maybe a year ago it was mainly focused on like the universal mode or single page app mode where you have a node server or you have just a single page app and it worked really well because it was super open you can hook into anything you want with modules and now lately i think since the beginning of this year you guys have started to add like the content module and some other like tips and tricks kind of small tool set things but also like the full static mode is this because maybe other systems are growing a lot and next didn't do that or was this always the idea to go this way because it kind of it probably is going to outperform gritsim and gatsby quite easily because of its amazing bones right so what what do you think about this well i don't know i don't like to speculate between other frameworks they're all doing no of course i'm not here to create controversy right but i i'm interested why this direction um well i don't think it's like why i think it's something that you know um we always wanted to do or nooks always wanted to do and it was difficult to to do it properly so we had this like full static remember the difference between nooks and say gatsby for example is that we also are doing server-side rendering and we're also doing single-page application so it's not just as easy as like say oh yeah we're going to be full static because um that's what we're going to do we have to think about all the other use cases and we have a lot of people still using server-side rendering so we can't just say right now we're going to like forget server-side rendering and just do static hosting that's not what we want to do we want to still provide the best service um looking at all those options so that everyone gets what they want yeah and i think yeah exactly because the server-side rendering is actually something that's amazing it's kind of a strange concept that you server-side render and then hydrate and load effectively the same bundle twice and all this craziness but on the other hand it's surfing me personally very well in a lot of projects and i we wouldn't have chosen a gritsum for those projects because we need the extra complexity right so to me it's only getting better because if you look at the quality of the next content that comes out i'm like why did i choose this other thing that next just came out with this i'm gonna have to rebuild again yeah completely and it's gonna get better i mean we just released the full static right but that is like just like i i guess you could say just like a taster of what's coming because that's going to be built upon right so that's amazing but it's not finished that's going to be even better so we're going to keep working like nooks 3 is going to come out to pretty much soon enough you know towards the end of the year and that's gonna like focus a lot as well on the full static but also like not leaving behind server side rendering we're not like saying oh we're just gonna go and focus on full static now that's not the case but with full static we're obviously covering a lot of use cases so that you can deploy your application on netlify on free hosting i don't pay for hosting anymore and i don't want to pay right and as a developer i have no interest in ever paying for hosting again so being able to do that on that and use and leverage those um services then obviously static full static is better for me because before the full static did have the issue that it wasn't updating the api like if you refresh the page you've got like you know if you change your api you'd get a different call to the api and now everything is you know it's all the same it's basically in cached it's in a static folder so you're getting the same results all the time and that just makes it much better especially for clients you know that they don't have that issue yeah they're very interested in this sorry faster and better offline support and it's faster to like you know to deploy because because we've separated the build from the actual generation of the pages so if you're just changing content we can now just regenerate your site based on the content without having to regenerate and go to a webpack which means oh wow yeah so you know the way those clients are like i don't want to wait two minutes for my site to deploy you're saying two minutes right i'm used to playing like oh okay okay with the time right i'm used to an hour oh no way welcome to enterprise if we build in two minutes we're like like what we're used to is like okay you know what press build go and play foosball with your colleagues and then come back oh the build is done let's see if it worked like that's how long it takes so if you say two minutes and then even less i'm like okay i'm good yeah well obviously it depends on how big your side is and how many how much content and stuff you have but just being able to like you know have that build kind of like almost cached to say like you know so your build is done you don't have to build again because you've only changed your content so now i'm just regenerating those pages if you obviously modify the um a plugin or a component um html et cetera then yeah we're gonna have to like rebuild you know but if you're just changing content it's it's just super easy like the pages are already there we're just generating what's inside it so yeah it makes it um much faster and much better and much easier for clients as well because they're just so impatient it's like hey honestly to me this sounds like i want to be building some sort of cloud surface to change the content in that build full on that static folder and then suddenly create some sort of cms where content editors actually go there without go touching code and of course maybe that's too much or i don't know but for me that would be very interesting because if you separate those two things you can suddenly have workflows for content editors and they can actually do previews and all of it starts to get together and being ready for bigger systems so actually this is super cool and going back to what you just said preview so you know you have the enable preview mode so you actually live preview the content coming from the api or the cms so you can basically just create a new page or add modify text and put the query param um preview equals true and then you can see that change and then you can decide okay i like that change i'm going to deploy i'm going to save it whereas before you could never do that right you had to always deploy from the api and then you had to like oh gosh there's a mistake and then you have to like modify it and then redeploy it that and preview feature is just is it is a it's incredible especially when you're working with clients like you and me know working with agencies um you get to work with people who are not tech people who like to see what they've put on a page before they actually deploy it and now we can do that so that's kind of that's really cool as well oh i'm liking this oh man questions are bubbling i'll ask you one more and then we go for the other stuff so what if let's say you have an e-commerce right and so you have parts dynamic and part static because e-commerce is also tell stories about products so they're just beautiful pages with models on it and whatever stuff like that right so can you actually combine a next as in universal maybe and a next maybe in some parts static does that work yet you can with like the single page application yes so you can have single page application fallback but then you are not going to get those um those pages as uh with like um meta type right yeah exactly yeah so that's the only thing you're gonna it depends on what you want so we built it for a booking engine for a hotel for a travel agency so for booking hotels and stuff and it was full static but we had a booking engine with the hotel results as a single page application because you don't need to get the result page having a search engine optimization right so that worked perfect for that situation um with an e-commerce site it depends on what you want server-side rendered what you want static and why you want something server-side rendering what are you going to gain from that unless you're constantly changing every couple of seconds and stuff well there you go it's not every couple of seconds but they're like daily updates to like 500 pages with some content changes but also personalization and we don't want to always push the personalization as javascript because that's a very heavy load so we have this whole brain behind that knows exactly what people do and and you know tracks them and all of that so we want to be able to when we render a page we don't know yet what components are going to be on there we're going to ask that api tell me what do i show it in which state and then render it and so that's also hard to cache and if you have to do that statically every time it's just impossible so you need some sort of note back end or something that we use so that's why i'm asking this and now we just use next in universal mode and we're very happy but i want to go and say some of those static pages are always static they never really change let's say a campaign that has a picture and a video we're not going to change that so i would say there are a lot of openings now and i'm really interested in your talk and you know i could just read the docs but i won't so it would be very nice if you can actually talk about it so yes i'm super excited cool i'm looking forward to getting it too yeah i can imagine um so you have been at next now for four months something like that almost almost four months yeah wow um so how do you like the job is it like what you imagined it would be it is amazing like seriously it is i don't know it's like um when you get paid to just do your hobby all day right so in in like the when i worked in the agencies and i was working with nooks like i absolutely loved every minute of that but then i also had to do other tasks i also had to work with angular i also had to you know team lead i also do other kind of stuff right so it was always a job whereas now it's like it doesn't feel like i go to work it just feels like i spend my saturdays it's like a saturday every day is a saturday and i'm programming and i get paid for it and obviously i have tasks right and obviously i have like a road map and things to do and stuff but it's all enjoyable work and it's all i'm always learning the new stuff as well and i'm working with a great team of people which for me was like the you know the one thing i wanted was to always i don't want to be the best in the company i want to be almost the worst because then i can like grow and you can learn constantly yeah exactly and i feel like in the nooks team that that's like you know you know in a way where i'm positioned right because i'm working with like some of the best programmers in in the world in my opinion clearly created like absolutely amazing an amazing framework and modules and everything and the brain behind these people is incredible so to work with them to get constant you know help from them it just means i grow so much and that was like part of my thing this year i want to learn more i want to grow more and yeah i don't know i actually just love what i'm doing seriously oh i'm so happy because um i think it's always kind of hard when you decide to jump to something something outside of your own country and i remember us having some phone calls of like hey how does this work how do you feel about stuff and so can you explain like what was your personal narrative like what was how were you talking about this to yourself in your mind while making this decision well um i guess there's a sign on my entrance of of my apartment right and when i walk in i take my shoes off and it's something i read every time i like come in and every time i leave the apartment and it says do more of what makes you happy and i was going out of my house every day and i wasn't doing a lot of what made me happy i was doing a lot of tasks in a job that wasn't making me happy right so i knew i needed to leave where i was because it's not making me happy right and this sign is telling me every day so um obviously like when it came to nooks i mean what are the negative points of working with nooks i mean there are very few obviously the biggest negative is changing from a contract job where you have like you know a better pension and all that kind of stuff to a freelance contract right because you know freelance contracts could end and that's the only kind of negative thing but in my opinion it wasn't a negative thing because it's like um it's not an issue because i see nooks as something that's not a startup that's going to end um tomorrow right it's something that's it's kind of very stable in my opinion and at least two years we have like you know from the funding we have you know a very good first two years and i mean we're gonna you like obviously grow and get better and i'm sure there's gonna be more funding rounds in the future and it's just gonna get better and better so um yeah so for me it wasn't really that difficult to make the decision because also i know um the chopin brothers from many conferences so i knew them personally so i'm not going into a company not knowing what it's gonna be like to work for these people right i mean working for someone is different to knowing them but you know them um on the team okay i didn't know the other members of the team but i mean that's fine you just get to know them and then the only other thing was working remote so this is my first time uh ever taking up a remote job so obviously not going into an office and like obviously now nobody's going to an office right so so that's kind of been a nice help because it's a nice intro into working remote but to be honest um i don't mind working remote once i have the interaction like you know some sort of like video calls with someone just so i know people are there that there's some kind of interaction select messages whatever and that's something that we're getting so um i don't miss going into an office at all i actually really like working from home because like it's summer here in mallorca right it's like 35 degrees and i can take pool breaks i can like go down into my swimming pool pool breaks are you kidding me come back up and then just work and i mean you could never do that in an office so there are a lot of benefits to working from home and i absolutely just love it i i wanted to ask you did go fit 19 and the pandemic and the lockdown change the scope of your job and would working from home be worse but you already answered that because it seems like you're totally fine with it and you're doing really well yeah i mean it was it was it was harder when we were in lockdown where we weren't allowed to leave the apartment right that was obviously hard which meant i worked more because there was nothing else to do so easter holidays for example normally we have five days of easter holidays i didn't take a single day off because what do you do you know you don't do anything so i prefer to work whereas now obviously at the weekends and you can see from my um github you can see like sundays i'm not programming at all sundays i am cycling or i'm going to beaches and going to mountains and i actually think that's better because i i think i work better and work more when i actually do take a day off and not use the computer seven days a week so i think taking a break is important and i think the whole covert thing made me not take a break um which is was the only negative thing right in that sense but in general yeah in general i mean i miss traveling and i miss seeing people at conferences and stuff and that's the hardest thing because obviously that was going to be a big part of my job as well and i'm doing a lot of talk like i've done more talks during covet 19 than i would have done if i if it hadn't been this whole virus thing because it's easier to get people uh to speak at international events um and i've just had so many so many talks it's it's just been overwhelming like it's been incredible okay so actually you turned it into a positive which i kind of like then again um the working too much i have the same i don't stop because i have a brain similar to yours i just want to run with it it doesn't always work out but then again if you balance your life in the end you're good so this is why the pool breaks they're important exactly so i have walking the dog breaks but yes it's the same yeah three times a day i try to go to the pool just like 20 minutes like literally like 20 minutes i go down swim for 20 minutes come back up and then i'm just so refreshed on it just my head and sometimes i'm in the pool i'm like oh now i know how to do that and i come back up and it's it's it's this lifesaver no it's it's you need to do it so i have a pool next to my house also but it's closed because of kofit and it's like an in this like a big pool with all this organization it's not like one near an apartment where you just jump in because it's in your garden let's say well it's it's it's you know it's community pool so at the moment because of covert we have a security guy there we have to wear a wristband we have to sign in um so there's a lot more control than normally when but but it's fine and if you go at the right hours the hours when there's no kids and then you can like swim and stuff if you go like five o'clock in the afternoon it's just full of children it's impossible so you're like no no so you choose your times wisely and then if you have a meeting and you can't go then it's like oh damn you have to go and jump in with all the kids but you know it could be worse i'm not complaining uh yes exactly so a while back i saw you on a live stream or live stream of a podcast with lauren lee and she asked you about one of your experiences with getting like i think it was like your first proper javascript like job and you told a crazy story of like you had to just build a react booking app and it you had like six weeks to do it and then it took a lot of time and then to me it sounded crazy then again i'm privileged because i had easier ways to get a job but would you mind explaining how that felt and what you went through and then once you're done with that how would you hire someone right because to me that story was borderline crazy but it probably taught you a lot as well yeah so it was in the time when i was studying javascript so three years ago right so three years ago uh february i started studying javascript and um i had this like a possibility of getting a job and i put my curriculum in et cetera and i had like all the years of front-end so uh css html sas for example but no javascript experience i mean i couldn't even use jquery right so um so yeah this job opportunity came up and my cv was put on the desk of the right person and they sent me the challenge and and i got this challenge to create a booking engine in react as a challenge and i had six weeks to do it um and i didn't know javascript never mind react so i was like um you know yeah i do um i can't tell them that so i just had to like find a way of learning javascript and react within six weeks which was impossible in my opinion it's it's pretty crazy yeah so i did like i was with open classrooms at the time and um they helped me obviously you know with a help of a mentor and i studied a hell of a lot worked my way up to it um and i was also doing the treehouse courses as many courses as you could possibly find on javascript and at the end of the six weeks i had created this booking engine which was absolutely crap right but it was cool i still have it i still have it but it you know it was it worked and it was good and i was proud of it but it's you know it was really junior kind of dev stuff right so i handed it in and said like you know um this is what i built but um i've never learned javascript before this um so this is what i had to learn and what i did to get to this stage and if i had more time this is what i'd do and then they gave me two weeks more because they said they could see potential and they were like really you know yeah they were really positive and really helpful towards it so i was like great so i had another two weeks and they asked me to create a chrome extension and um what question is that like chrome extension i know when i think about it i'm like i don't even know how to create a chrome extension now but i created it exactly and it worked it was a little buggy but it worked and a read me with like you know a lot of details had to learn all markdown and create this amazing rudely and then add some dynamic kind of data and stuff and i and i did this right and i handed this in and they said that um i was the most um what do they say the most uh i can't remember the exact words but like the most active applicant they've ever seen right um like they've never seen someone who've done so much to get to honestly finishing that makes you probably the only one because who would want let's say you don't have a job right and you want to find a job and you have to take eight weeks of full full work to get there a lot of people probably won't do that yeah because you probably shouldn't spend that long but i obviously didn't have the skills so i had to spend that long but nowadays i could probably do that in a lot less time right so for me to be honest um it was a great way to learn what the job would require because by by doing that challenge i knew what i needed where i need to focus what you know what companies looking for so it was a very very valuable um task really now after after those um this is like yeah six eight weeks then they gave me another challenge um another okay yeah uh which yeah it was it was a very long process um and then basically after that challenge which was creating a wordpress website right which i was like i just want to get away from wordpress i want to work in javascript but obviously i had a lot of wordpress experience so i kind of just okay you were able to quite fast do that quite fast i guess yeah but it wasn't interesting for me it was like boring so i just don't want to do this i didn't you know give up my career in teaching to go back into web development to work in wordpress that was not where i was going and i was very honest with them when i put it in that you know when i handed in the project and maybe that kind of made them say oh no no way so i didn't get that job um i'm sorry this is so ridiculous they asked you to do three completely different things something you would likely never do in real life unless it's a company of three people and then not hire you well you persevered like it's a personal win i would say like that's insanely awesome but for them to just say that yeah it was really hard because they didn't even give like feedback right so i just got the usual uh human resources letter uh thank you very much um you haven't been successful this time um blah blah blah and i was like i just i cried i was like oh my god i failed again and it was really really hard um and luckily i have a friend who works in there right in a different department and i said to him can you just you know just find out something just i need some feedback just something to kind of help me go in the right direction and you know to be honest they were very helpful and they gave the feedback back to my friend who gave it to me and basically said that you know if they hadn't taken me on they would have to spend too much time training me um and they needed someone to just jump be able to jump into the role and i completely understand and they said like you know they recommend like you know keep building things just keep working and keep building and in a year's time things will be very different and i mean they were so right a year's time like wow the difference is incredible so yes it is a complete pity because part of their whole team structure and thing is like you know um you know fanatic learning and you know we want people they want people like me but they want them they don't want junior developers right they want people who are ready to step into a role and i think that's the biggest thing about companies you know you're willing to learn and you could be so amazing but they're not willing to take you until you have all that experience behind you and really really know what you're doing so this is quite painful because how do you ever get that experience by having crazy eight week or maybe 10 week things like this probably not you actually need to get a chance so to me it sounds a bit like okay we are this company we need these kind of people we're gonna put some sort of outrageous thing out there see who jumps it's kind of an arrogant thing to do to me but they probably didn't even think about that they just want the best people yes they want do you feel like they strung you along a little bit or did i it's i wonder what that like how they thought like what is the process there to be honest like because the first way of um the contact i had with them was really really nice i had personal emails and and it was really really nice and then it switched it changed and all of a sudden that that you know happened and i always explained to me actually um that they changed the way they do things so that the developers were not the ones speaking to the applicants it was all true human resources so they changed their process and i was in the middle of that process so i went from this lovely amazing feedback to like a horrible blank you just or another person on a list right and that felt a little horrible right that wasn't the fault of the developer the developer was obviously doing his job and then told hey you know you're not allowed to use that email not that communication anymore and the funny thing was um that basically um it was about a year later a year later i won a place on a course with kyle simpson to go to uh trivago for a a week to learn javascript right so uh basically i was um sent to trivago to the company that said no to me oh okay this oh sorry i didn't know okay yes okay so you were sent there oh interesting yeah so i won the place i got chosen to go there because i contributed to webpack at the time and i want to play right so i'm there for a whole week um in trivago in the whole in the company i want to work with want to work for in this amazing office because they have amazing offices and i'm learning javascript from like you know one of the best teachers in the world and um and there i am in this office and the person who interviewed me is actually in that office and i got introduced to him and i actually had a really nice conversation with him and um and he was like you know i'm really really sorry i felt so bad because like you know you had so much potential and you know so he explained it in a really really nice way and it was really really nice and to be honest like i have had great chats with the managers of trivago and um like completely um we have absolutely i have no problem with you know how they did things but the way their procedure was um i probably would not have hired me either okay right sure because i wasn't ready and if i was in their position i probably would have made the same decision um and i don't think even nowadays even like i've worked um on the other side and i've you know taken in people's um what do you call it um applications yeah but we don't call it application not just applications because over here in spain we all give people a trial a test to do right oh sure okay we have an interview so it's a normal thing what trivago did here is normal and it's what everyone does so we send somebody something to do and they send that back and there's a lot of times we don't because you get too many back and you can't then take that one person and say hey i'm going to mentor you and i'm going to tell you what you did wrong and how you can be better because at the end of the day we're a company we need to employ people and we need people to be able to do the job and if we don't have enough people to be able to help and train and mentor someone then we can't take on the junior developers and that's that's the sad truth and the side reality of the world within people don't have time therefore the junior developers find it very difficult to to come into work because we don't have time for them it feels like you should maybe work where i work because we have a lot of junior developers and we choose them based on how they communicate how they carry themselves how to ask questions and if they have some sort of width and you can learn on the job so we have a bunch of them and they are now basically after two years they're superstars so i make that time but i'm in a luxury position where i can do that so not everybody has that this is clear but yeah i totally believe in that because if i now hire someone who is let's say 35 or 40 and has some experience they have certain expectations for a job which is normal but those expectations might actually derail your common goal of the team even though this person is a rock star so i'd rather get younger people who have less experience but you can mold them by teaching them what is the the need of the greater good here so it's kind of a balance there because for you you are higher in heartbeat because it kind of fits but that's not with everyone right so it's it's a very interesting um concept here so how would you now let's say you were in charge of hiring someone at next let's say you're gonna hire me what would you do what would your process be um i am so glad that i don't have to hire people because because in my last job i was in charge of that right and it's really hard and it's very hard um especially when you live on a small island right and and you work a company that only allows you to hire people based on the island or who are willing to come and move to the island right so obviously working with different because it opens the whole world right but when you're stuck with a limitation like that there are not that many people available like you're really really ready yeah and and i did hire one person who was um really really young and i got questions from the from the bosses saying um oh he's he's only like 22. i was like like where did he study i went i don't know i didn't ask him like you what you don't know where he studied i said i have never asked anyone where they studied and i hired like i don't know 50 people in my career probably more i have never once asked that same here i studied because i didn't go to university i went and then i quit so i know nothing i don't care yeah so yeah so things like that are not important to me like where did you study that i don't care where you used to show me your code i want to see your code i want to see what you've done um what's your github profile i want to check that page out i want to see you know what you're doing and one of the questions that i i used to ask as well is what do you want you know why when you come here what do you expect and what do you want from it because if if they're just looking for i just want a job okay you know or if they're coming i want to learn i want to grow i want to uh build new things that's the kind of person i want i want someone with energy and there are a lot of different people right and like when working in an agency we also needed people who were just going to come in and do a job right who weren't going to you know push themselves and learn because they just wanted to work till five o'clock just get something done and we need those people as well because if everyone is is growing and stuff it's you know it's hard to kind of like mentor mentor those and make sure they have the right career ladder and kind of you know help and push them to what they want to do so in nooks for example um it would really depend on the role that we need like i mean i think there's different people for different roles if we wanted someone who's just going to come in and fix books for example and just help the framework fixing books then we don't need someone who's really like wants to be so amazing and like speak at conferences and and grow in that part if we want someone who is gonna like you know who wants to build modules who wants to like um i don't know just kind of like program and stuff and we want someone who's got a lot of kind of uh not even experience but someone who's done all something like that before even if it's just for themselves and who can show us hey this is what i've done and i guess you could say someone who's creative someone who like that doesn't need to be told every day okay today you're gonna do this and then tomorrow this is what you need to do so i think the creativity and someone who's able to come in and say oh i want to do this or other ass can you do this and they give you something more right i think that's really really important when looking for someone but they give they're extra as opposed to i'll give you a guideline and say can we create this and then they give you this cool actually what's funny is when i asked you for a process of how you would do it you didn't give me a process you just gave me a vibe and that is exactly how i do it too i don't actually care about rules and i live in france so it's scary to say these things because they love their rules but if you then always battle those and then at one point i'll just say okay i trust this person let's roll with it generally those work out really well so yeah i like that we're on the same page with that listen we are like 40 minutes in yes and um i know people will not watch the whole thing but we have we have a lot of good content in here so i'm really happy i'm just going to upload the whole thing but let's not go much longer because also i don't think my pc can render much more anyways i wanted to thank you a lot for taking the time today and um i'm really looking forward to your talk um on the view global conference thank you i'm really looking forward to have to write it i haven't written it yet it's all in my head right but we keep building more things and improving so much that it's very hard to like you know to finalize it until like almost the week before because like we we could just like you know release something else and i'm like oh and i've got to change it so yeah i'm really excited because next is just getting better and better and better and i'm really excited for more people to see how easy it is to use and also like for because it's global right this is like you know we can touch every corner of the world with this conference right and before like you know me and you we've both been to amsterdam it's an amazing conference there's about a thousand people there right and then yeah the video is online and some people watch it online but now we can reach everyone in the world from people who could possibly not afford to travel or whose visas wouldn't allow them to like come to the country right that's a very important one yeah and we're reaching these developers and i think these developers are the future these people who have never had this opportunity before are now going to learn things that they never had the possibility to learn very easily and like just be able to target all those people i think it's just incredible yeah like looks defined the world this is yeah okay thank you very much and i hope to see you in real life soon yeah me too all right cheers bye