An interview with Debbie O'brien from Nuxtjs

we have another interview for the channel yes today I got to talk to my friend Debbie O'Brien Debbie just landed her new job at next as head of learning and this was the opportune moment to interview her on how did you get that job what is your way of working how did you challenge your cultural differences stuff like that next to talking about her job we talked about the fact that she is a valuable professional for Google for Microsoft for cloud and Neri also for me if I have a question I'll go to Debbie so we talked about 40 minutes maybe a bit longer and there's a lot of insight there's a bit of vulnerability there's a bit of fun this has been one of my more favorite interviews so without further ado this is the interview with Debbie O'Brien from next hi Debbie what's up I I'm good thanks how are you sorry that's feel sorry Hearst but it's fun it's all good ok so let's dive right in right so you are Irish you live in my Orca you work for a French company what's the story here would you mind elaborating a little bit well I'm Irish but it rains a lot in Ireland so I moved to Majorca and I've been living here for 20 years now whoa yeah I'm half my yorkie now at this stage house and yeah I started work recently this month actually working for next which is a French company so yeah so have you noticed any like well you've you've been there for a while right but have you noticed any like cultural differences and stuff with Spanish companies yeah I mean I can't say with French because I know Sebastian Aleks quite well so there's never been a problem but with Spanish companies yeah I mean people always say I'm too direct no it's like the the Irishness and me I just come out and say it's straight as it is and I'm very honest and just like you know say it as is and I think other people are not used to that keine way of being so and having been there 20 years do you know how to navigate it now or is it still the same like for me in France I am still like rude as hell um I actually got a book a few books actually which I was studying and it's on like empathy and on working with different people on how to understand people because sometimes it's actually not just culture it's also people are different so depending on the type of person you are you always have to like treat them a little bit different you know the likes of me and you for example I would expect if you come and work for me that you're gonna deliver as good as me and has put as much time and effort into things and then Saturday and Sunday are gonna spend the weekend studying non-stop right yeah but not everyone is like that on some people it's just a job for them they do things different so you can't expect the same from every single person and I think learning about people it's even better than learning just about cultures because it's not just culture it's people that are different as well that's very profound we're first question in yeah with that in mind you just said you expect people like you like basically who are a little bit like you and me like if you work together that you work hard during the week and in the weekend you you study a little bit stuff like that right um as a woman in tak who is actually super driven and honestly freaking awesome like you're the one of those that I just seen at whoa this is this is the one it's awesome do you notice like any bias from men like I've heard other women saying like they were given feedback about your so career driven and like if you say that to a man it's actually positive but to a woman maybe not and it's like have you had any similar experiences you know I don't really think so because I grew up in I have three brothers and a sister so I grew up surrounded by boys where I lived as well there was a lot of like lads I used to play football and do Taekwondo so again constantly surrounded by guys and I think like when I started in in tech et cetera I mean I was always the only female programmer so it was never really anything I saw as different because when I was playing football with the light side with the oniy one female footballer as well and so I guess I've never had that experience where what guys I don't know like like I even say like hey guys to everyone and I'll includes girls because I'm just so used to you know sight I don't really have any bad experiences but it is true if you look back all my job interviews have always been guys all any programmer except for the last job I was in pretty much every other company was um it was just guys it was just I was the only girl but that never felt anything strange to me because that's the way my life is Vienna and in most of my sporting and I don't know so yeah I haven't really had a problem I guess well that's great to hear because the the lesser problems we hear about the better it is I would say maybe I'm just so used to how guys are and so that when they say things I don't take offence or something I don't know okay that might be a potential problem there but yeah I'm used to like going out going out for drinks with with the guys in my local village in Ashford in County Wicklow and if you were to like just be around them and hear the conversations you know you have to be able to just take a slagging as we say in our end and just be part of the guy it's just you know cuz you guys talk differently to how we girls talk and you know you can get in with how the guys are again it's understanding people as well I think yeah it's just I guess it's also being sensitive to the differences and stuff right hmm so I've known you maybe two years now think something like that we didn't met last year for the first time on a plane we were traveling to get there and you got on the plane and I saw the message and I said come and sit beside me and then you checked over my slides and I was speaking for the first time in my first view conference oh yes I remember this because it was a really bad flight for my wife her her ears hurt or something I think and then I slid over to you and we work together and I came back and she was pretty upset but I didn't realize yes yeah you didn't tell me you had a wife on the play oh my god anyways but yeah I was bad it sold me and anyways I'm not gonna go into it because yes it was all me but so it was interesting to see that you your career in tech wasn't that old by then you hadn't done it that long but you're already at a such a high level so I just assumed you were in tech as long as me and you weren't so would you mind like explaining a little bit like the before and how you got there how did you get interested well actually I've been in tech for quite a long time but not in tech for quite a long time so I started about 1997 I think it was um and I built my first website when we didn't even have the internet so I couldn't even see what it was like when you put it live because it's a very Irish thing no you think you'd be able to build a course and you teach it and but you can't actually use the Internet so um again we had no editors back then so it's just like using notepad and writing HTML code and CSS is you know pretty rubbish and JavaScript was just marquees going across the screen and blinking and that was it I remember those times yeah they were fun but it was it meant that things were very boring so I did get my first job and I was working with Dreamweaver on computer manuals and things like that text and it was very very boring so I left moved to Majorca and while in my York I was working on the stage having fun as an entertainer and in the winter is traveling the world and just kind of having fun because you know you only have work in the summer and then I'm a winter you've got no work but then I started going back to studying so some of the winters I went back and I study PHP I studied flash then I started building flash websites for for customers like you know bars and local restaurants then I went into WordPress and tried to get into like the big companies no but again I was a foreigner in in a small islands America so trying to get into tech was very very difficult maybe as well maybe cuz I was a woman I don't know I don't like to you know stereotypical it but um but yeah I couldn't get a job I actually only ever worked for a German company or like an English company or company that wasn't Spanish and again maybe as well because my Spanish wasn't as good I mean I spoke fluent but I never studied Spanish so my vocabulary was great but my grammar was terrible which meant at a proper interview I might have came across as someone who was not gonna be very professionally good no or my written Spanish was terrible I could only learn how to write like I learned true what's up you know so I think there was a like a mixture of things so um after a while I worked for a few startups and built some like I did a lot of front-end development so I was very very good at HTML and CSS and very good at sass and they all kept running out of money like one after the other after the other after the other so I was constantly out of work which meant I had to go for another career which was teaching English and I was like you know basically doing two careers at the same time on it was a it was three years ago exactly three years ago that I started learning JavaScript because I couldn't get a job if I didn't know JavaScript basically every job description you need reactor JavaScript or so many like any framework under the Sun and I didn't even know what they were so I started studying again and basically gave up every job I had so my teaching English and the small WordPress websites I was doing and I studied full-time for 7 months 9 months 7 days a week 12 hours a day like pretty much locked myself into this office here and I just studied I did 3 degrees at the one time a full stock Tech degree a front-end Tech degree and I was also doing a post-grad in Spanish language just in case you know I didn't get this job and I had a my fallback plan to then become a teacher full-time in one of the actual schools as opposed to a language school you're actually blowing me away this is insane you're basically in that way longer than I am your ear maybe is slightly all about not that much so you just found your way the way as life just happened I guess no no I I don't think I found my way as life just happened I I went through a lot of personal problems and I kind of ended up in a very deep dark hole that basically put me in a way that I just I didn't want to do anything I didn't I didn't see I couldn't have children so that was a big issue for me and my career was crop so I was like you know what am I here for life is crop basically and I didn't even really see what I had like you know I had this I live in this beautiful island if a beautiful husband my apartments great like I have a lot of good things right but I all I saw was what I didn't have and what everyone else had you know you can't have this and and that's what you see and I was I was very sad I was very down and I didn't know how to get out of it to be honest it's not easy you don't just like take a tablet or someone doesn't wave a magic wand and say okay be happy and I want it to be happy but I couldn't I didn't know how to do it and it was a friend that came along and said I want to help you she said she was doing it dream builders course and I was kind of like going yeah this is you know not really very much of interest to me but I wanted to spend time with my friends as I okay well come along and yeah the dream builder course was the one that basically changed everything for me now was a slow process it wasn't just like you know it was every single week I had to find out what my dream was like to go back and decide what is it that you want and of course like at the time it was different you know I was like you know what my dream is and you know the hospital's couldn't make it happen so this is loaded crop this course and and she was like no no no if time or money was not in the way what is your dream and if you think about that for a second right if time or money is not in the way and then you go okay so I can be anywhere in the world and I can be any age in the world I said well then I want to be a programmer for Google that's my dream I said that that's never gonna happen because I live in Majorca and I'm no good at programming so therefore it's not gonna happen and obviously she was like slap in the face everything is possible and I didn't see it I really did not see it was possible I like three years ago um I can tell you I just thought this was never ever gonna happen I could never do this because I had studied JavaScript it's been 6,000 euros on courses and I had failed so badly it for so many years I couldn't do it and with the help of the dream builder course it helped me build my confidence in myself and also find the right the right tools the right company that was going to help me learn so like open classrooms and treehouse were the ones I used having a mentor for example that was really helpful so yeah Wow it was a long journey yeah everybody's different right and I'm amazed by the fact that you actually found the spark you needed to actually do this and that must have been a pretty big hurdle to overcome right I think I got to the stage where if I don't do this now I don't fix my life right now I'm gonna be unhappy for the rest of my life so I put absolutely everything into it which which included all our savings so every single penny we had and I like like I said I quit my job in the language school my husband was like maybe you can't leave a job if you don't have another job to go to and I was like no I need to do this I actually just need to do this I put my life on hold I didn't go to the beach I didn't do anything I just studied study to study to study just probably why I'm like taking in this whole confinement really well because I made it like seven months so I can you know and it was hard even back then I just remember saying to my mentor I just want to see people I want to speak to people this is so hard on it is really hard like working remotely studying remotely not seeing people all the time not interacting but yeah I knew I had to do it and I gave it my all and I'm lucky that I have my husband who supported me so much and I'm like I said it wasn't easy the dream builder course I think it was 12-week course okay so I kept build getting better and better every single week and we had exercises to do of you know how to help you you know believe in yourself more and I'm like it's incredible the difference from when I started in that course to to where I'm now like it's it's it's just incredible but I recommend it for anyone to just yeah do kind of one of those courses or read a book on how to get the most out of life I think this is you are now the second one telling me a similar story of having something else going on not managing to get out of it or trying to and then actually finding this technology thing and then turn things around and then just like go all the way up like you did and I think this is just so great to see that technology is able to give us this right like for example my wife who has like some chronic illnesses and now during corona he actually is not gonna be able to work anymore because she cannot be too close to people I'm at least for a long time now and now she is in touch with the people I have also interviewed before of how can I change myself who actually learn and do something in tak is I would say tech is the the field you have to change your career around right that's really cool your wife psych well well she's working hard it's not easy well you know it's not here right so now you are a developer advocate for Microsoft Google right again oh I'm so stupid for not knowing help me a Google developer expert and Microsoft most valuable professional an extraordinary media developer expert so that just basic isn't at all similar was I wrong I don't get paid by them and I don't represent them in any way so I'm basically just it's like being how would you say it it's like they're recognizing the work that I do for the community so it's a recognition and it means that they they're recognizing my work and so they they help me and support me and it means I have access again to like a load of amazing people and can ask you know like the the chrome dev team for example questions some part of you know part of that but I'm not an employee or not paid by them in any way and therefore not represent them officially or legally in any way yeah my words were wrong but what you just said is what I meant but like imagine coming now the program now it's like imagine coming from where you came from and now you're basically in this dream position and you alt it at yourself and now you just started that next yeah if you weren't famous already now you are definitely and but here you actually work there right so would you mind explaining first of all how you got there and what you will be doing so it's it's really strange right I'm gonna tell you a story how I got there I think it goes back to a year ago so um it was a year ago at the first view conference I ever attended to which was the Amsterdam and I wanted to speak about next but I was I kind of felt like you know Who am I to talk about next maybe they won't want me to talk about next so I wanted to get introduced to the Chopin Brothers to ask them their permission so that I could speak about nooks in a conference which obviously they were like you know of course think about nooks right but I don't know like you know I'm not good enough to speak about nooks so I wanted there okay so then I you know felt I could do it and it was actually at that weekend that in in via Amsterdam last year and I was walking with Sebastian back from I think it was from dinner to the hotel and he was telling me all about his plans for next like it was a such an amazing conversation and I was just like wow I think that's when I really fell in love with nooks I've been using it already for a year I was already in love with it but that was the moment of wow this this framework is amazing I love their vision I love what they want to do and I spoke about Knox then in a view Verona and then in Barcelona and another country so I got to meet up with the Shogun brothers again like week after week it was kind of like we spent a month pretty much touring Europe you know great he was so much fun so I got to know them really well and I had great chats with Alex Chopin as well I'm like you know he wanted me to be part of the next team and I was like no I'm not good enough I'm not doing enough for next I'll if just done is written a few talks I'm not good enough to be there but I really want to be like part of the Knux team and this is just like contributing right not not a job this is know you know but I wanted to be like a nukes core team member this is my goal and I told him that I said I want to be next core team member but I want to have done enough to to get that and when when the day comes that I've done enough work for next um that I get that and they say you're now yeah I don't know like you've done enough that you deserve it then that's the day I want to be like part of the team and then that just that happened and I never ever thought I would ever work for next right because nukes is open-source so obviously if someone said you know what's your dream job nowadays it would have been like yet to work for notes but you can't work for nukes cuz it's open source so that's not a job that's not a possibility right obviously then they got the funding in February and which changed everything so I'm gonna tell you a longer story if that's okay of course oh I think things kind of changed when I went to the JumpStart conference in San Francisco so while I was there I was having a chat to the terrace and to map who are the co-founders of nullify and I was kind of like just in a conversation saying like you know cuz notify is an amazing company and I was like going oh my god I would like love to work for never fight now recently about a month before that I think it was I had dinner with Sarah Dresner and she was saying why don't you apply to notify and I was like yeah no I will definitely I would love to work for nullified but I'm not good enough yes I won't be doing I yeah and she was like when do you think you'll be good enough and I'm like I don't know but I'm not good enough I'm not good enough for now no just in to interject you you keep saying that and after your first talk for next you were ready for next I saw you because I was there and you were actually representing them better than they were themselves but okay good tonight my programming skills that I dug myself a more than honey and remember I have when he learned JavaScript three years ago so you know this is like now two years ago whatever so so yeah obviously I doubt myself which is normal but yeah so I wanna was in in what is it it's an ice cream and ice cream Museum right we're in an ice cream museum and we went down a slide into a bath of ice cream sprinkle things like obviously like wooden or you know not real so we're in this massive bath of ice cream sprinklers and that's when I had a really really lovely chat with Chris and motts about working for a net worth eye or about working you know kind of more about a bit like a person like they asked me a personal question of like what do you want what is the job that you actually want and I was kinda like oh oh you know I want the hundred thousand a year that's what I won you went that route and it was like you know is that really what you want and I was like I don't know and I thought for a moment we had like this conversations been an hour long right but I thought for a moment and I kind of went you know what I know what it is I won for me it's always about the team it's for me the team is the most important and it's always been about the team and if I go back to looking at what I wrote down when I said I my dream was to work for Google Google could be any company but this is a team it's the people who make Google Google right yeah it's not it's not the office and the cool slide they have it you know that's great but it's about the people they have the amazing engineers and how they helped you you know to make you better developers yeah so I basically said Jim you know what it's about the team so I want to work for Sarah drisana for example because she's amazing she's like you know I'm my role model so to work for her would be incredible that's that's the kind of you know direction I want that's what I want what is the job I want to do I said I don't know like is it developer advocacy am I good enough for that you know and I wasn't really sure of what I wanted but I kind of knew I wanted to work in Sarah's team and do more kind of like advocacy stuff so anyway this conversation led to them putting me forward for a front-end position and net Liffe I I'm putting my seat of the pile well right.we yeah and I was in the bar with Matt and I told him you know yeah but I don't want to be bored and work and and he laughed and said you will never be bored and in work if you work for another play because then all the other companies I was in sometimes I was getting bored you know we weren't going fast enough for my liking and no and I got and stuck and I was like you know I don't want to just like just be the front-end developer on this you know I don't know a small project I want to one like a really big things to do yeah so it was really funny because um they were just laughing and and and then when I got the the email true to basically say okay for so to apply for it this is what you need to do etc to go to the application process and I basically sent an email back saying that you know what I'm actually not good enough my react skills are you know haven't like worked at react for about two years now and I don't think I'm really very good for this position and and I basically just talked myself out of a job I basically just shut the door in my face which is the stupidest thing you could ever do but maybe I wasn't ready for that position either so and also maybe it wasn't the job I wanted so it was a front-end role and I kind of did one more to speak at conferences and stuff and you know that might not have allowed me to do what I wanted to do so but it kind of you know got the ball rolling and got me thinking so then I started kind of like you know looking into like devvra jobs and kind of like you know there was one for Cyprus and I contacted them kind of looked at and said this looks cool they can't hire her firm for people in Europe so it wasn't possible right then I saw one for her Sora and I was like a read through it and you know like I didn't even think I was good enough so I sent it to some speaker friends of mine and said can you read this and think do you think I would be good enough for this job you send it to me I think also yes I did that's right yes go yeah so I was like you know can I do this so I applied for it thinking you know I probably won't even get it anyway had two amazing interviews with the cofounders of Asura and it got me really really excited in the sense of like you know okay I could actually get this job yeah and I could do this and and I was like very very close to it and then what happened then I went to the UM stir DOM and I was at the conference and while I was there I was like you know having just general chats with you know other speakers and saying you know that I was changing jobs and I'd had too intrusive hussar and I was maybe gonna work for them and I was really excited about it because I really loved house or ism it's it's actually amazing and as I was talking to people people actually I think you even kind of like mentioned it to someone else and then I ended up having like a mini interview in the speaker's room oh yeah I remember that yeah that was all my fault I think and when I when I was um sitting down with Sebastian strap on and he was telling me what you know they just got the investment for nooks and he was telling me about what their plans were and how I could help out more and do more stuff for them and they could like you know there was kind of like some payment to do kind of some hours or something like this and and I was like you know that's cool and he said you can still keep you know keep your doing your job and I was like well I'm actually leaving my job I'm gonna work for her Sora and I didn't have the job or her sewer right but I was just confident it were all ready to go I was ready to go and he just what no way and I was like yeah and he says no no I can't let you work for a Sora and I was like why like and he says no no no there's no way I would kick myself if you end up working for a Sora and I was like but what I would still do knock stuff for the weekends in my free time like like as I'm always doing and he's like no no no no no and and that was it like there was nothing really more said and then they arranged a call the week after and that that week after the view Amsterdam was a crazy week for me because I had like five companies calling me to offer me work right which was just crazy now remember it it took me so long to get like my job so long to get to where I am so to one week without even like really applying for jobs for people to call me up and say we want you to work for us and they were really good offers really good companies and it was like oh my god but when Sebastian and Alex called me and they told me that they want me to work for them full-time and when they said your role your title is head of learning and developer advocate I was just like wow and then wait for it then they said this we want you to be the Sarah Dresner of Next and I was like yes oh my god obviously that means you want me to be up there and I'm here right so I have a long way to get to Sarah dress this level of which is fine isn't it but it gives me a goal and it gives me something to work towards and it kind of like you know that's what they think I can do it as well which I think for me is cool yeah um I'm just like Sebastian saying he was gonna be a pair probing with me because they know that my programming skills need more work and you know I kind of like the fact that they know my weaknesses and are willing to help me build on those weaknesses which was it's gonna make me better as a programmer I'm better in my job as well well you know it yourself also which is super important right you're reflective you think about things and that helps a lot and you know I have a quick anecdote on this because we actually spoke to each other when I was in a train on the way to work or something about potentially that you would work there and you were so happy talking to me about it but we were actually talking about this house or a thing before so I already knew you would choose but back then I don't think you chose yet but no and the funny thing was how Sarah sent me this lovely email and they kind of said to me um you know that they really really like what I've done and everything there you know but what I'd be willing to do less view stuff and more graphic well stuff and like not go to as many conferences and it kind of like you know got me thinking am I ready to leave you behind and not leave it behind but not be my focal point right hmm and I was Kyle like going no I really want to work for how syrup but I really want to work for a view for how sort of you and only do you stuff but every react to 90's stuff and that was really it was a really lovely from them to kind of like told in my mind I said to say like is this what you want and I kind of went right now I'm not ready to to leave the view stuff and and work just in that area but maybe maybe next year with another year who knows so like that door is always open for me which is great and I'm gonna be working with them to build some cool next house or stuff etc so imagine you're gonna spread your wings at one point and going from a front and death to a web dev and whatever comes on your path you can probably just learn because of your experience right well I'm hoping to have lots of fun with absolutely everything that is next right Oh clearly these guys are ready to the sky's the limit like I've spoken to the guys a lot I know them I like the guys and the stuff that they explained to me of what is the plan for the future it's like and you have a job for a long time there you're gonna be doing some cool things all right sure III don't see myself like leaving anytime soon and and it was funny because when they made when they gave me that phone call obviously like you know I didn't say yes straight away I said you know first I was like taking it all in and kind of going like this even real like you know I need it in writing I need to like you know send me an email with all this I can read it over and kind of you know take it in and I went to bed that night and the next morning you know I said to my husband I said I'm taking the job next and he's like maybe you took that already yesterday in your heart you'd already said yes and he was like he wanted me to go for the you know the the secure job and the local company in saying because I had a job offer here and he also had a good job that I was in and he's like why don't you stay in the job that you're in because that's really good job as well and you know um and you're gonna move to a company that's like really as a company it's a startup company right because they've only got the funding and stuff and I was like you ever know I need to like I can't no I can't stay where I am and I can't go to another local company I said I cannot say no to nooks because as well if you think about it imagine I said no and you got the job I would hate you for the rest of my life okay well that's their answer they're right this is yes I currently always say if it's a hell yes go if it's a hassle yes you have to think about maybe say no yeah I think we're always afraid right and I'm always very cautious so you're afraid to kind of like it's like someone gives you that door so it's like when that net look like door it was like that was too good to be true so I decided I'm gonna close it because you know it's too scary right yeah and to work for nuts is obviously really scary for me because it's like you know I have to know basically do an amazing job because everyone's gonna see every single work that I do right no worries you know company then only that company sees it but now the world is gonna see my work and they're gonna see my mistakes my errors my flaws and then Oliver see like the things I do well so it's very scary but it's also so scarily like exciting that I just like you know oh my god it's just yeah it's like a dream job on like when I told my speaker friends from the Antarctica conference that I was at and I told them about it they were like just yes this is the perfect job for you like everyone has just said this job was meant for you like this is just yeah so it's amazing I love it perfect right anyway so we kind of now in this interview know what you're really good at right we've talked about this okay no no no we're not gonna go the other way I want to know what you're good at that nobody knows about yes there's something let's say you do at home or whatever that you're like a megastar at that actually us fewers that know you from the community actually don't know about I don't know because I don't we were very bad at like kind of saying what we're good at right cuz I'm always saying like I'm not good enough because I'm not as good as that other person but I've recently learned to kind of like say you know what actually I am good at that and it's really hard to say that so I'm gonna say it so I'm really really good at Taekwondo okay what degree Taekwondo black belt and what help me believe that I was actually good at it was it was very hard for me for training because I had a train on my own on my roof terrorists to be able to go from my my last grading the fourth degree which is really hydrating to pass and I used to fly to London for classes the weekends and then fly home like have classes with masters and with like really amazing world champions etc and then just on my own just trained trained so hard to then go into a grading 7-hour grading and come out of it feeling like you know what i did good and that feeling was like yes you know what now I know I think I'm good so yeah quick question the training on your own is that pure technique or his endurance what do you do because I see like this super cool person on a roof terrace somewhere in Majorca standing there doing their is that what it is is it like a movie moment so in Taekwondo there's a lot of stuff to do right this we've a lot of patterns that we learn and obviously like when you're doing the patterns or forms or what some people call them there are movements like kicks and sometimes they're like really really difficult you know having to hold a position having to get that position right so that takes a lot of practice takes a lot of repetition it's just like programming you need to keep like practicing and repeating it easier so at the time in well in Majorca there was there's no there's no actual Taekwondo club for the style of Taekwondo that I do which is the ITF Taekwondo so that meant the only way to train was on my own I did Bill I did run a school a couple of years ago and I had a school and had students and stuff but then I closed everything when I gave up everything to learn programming you're sure so then I just started training on my roof and when gyms were actually allowed I used to go to a gym and I'd get a corner and I'm just I remember even like getting the sack right um and I had to like practice because I had to break wood with a flying side kick and okay it's really hard to practice on your own right because you've got no wood so um I actually got some guys that we're like in the gym to just hope you know hope my camera is I can you just take a video of me and then I would like you know practice it and then watch my video back and say oh my god that's so terrible and then like keep repeating and repeating it so yeah perseverance though with if we think back on this whole story right there's a couple of hardships to overcome a couple of good things that came from it and so if you had let's say like a big billboard let's say on a big highway that everybody sees all the time is there some mantra that you have in your mind or some saying that you use or a motto that you would put on that and if so what is it well I will give you one which is believe in yourself okay but I would actually have it computerized so it's changing so then I would say like you are awesome and have it constantly putting out different messages because um what I found was when I was studying on my own I bought one sign which said good things are going to happen so this sign and I had it right beside my computer and every day I'd look at it and say maybe today is going to be the day it took months absolutely months of looking at that sign until that day came that I got the job and then you might think right now you've got the job now that's it you know you believe you're amazing no so now I have and my husband's great because he allows me to do this so in the entrance where I walk in into my house and you know where you take your shoes off and stuff I have all these signs up so I have I think I've got seven signs now whoa look at these everyday things like you're amazing believe in yourself dreams do come true change your thoughts and you'll change your your life just like so many different kind of ones and some are quite long as well and and then I program Alexa as well I say Alexa good morning and she tells me the weather and then she says Debbie you are amazing oh boy this is great and it just sets me up for the day so knocking at my door right now we can't look out the door but it sometimes you just need somebody else to tell you because I have the voice in my head that's constantly saying you're not good enough you can't do this you don't know what and you shouldn't be here you don't deserve this and I need that little kind of and now it actually it just makes me laugh it makes me smile every time Alex and then I can hear my husband in the other room he just loves because it's every single day Alexis saying Debbie you are amazing I think more people need this can is this is one of those Alexa recipes can you like put them online so people can download them I actually said it for my mother as well and she's in the kitchen and she's GM she says good morning Anna Barbara you were amazing and she's like my mother from a cheese just like because she is amazing right but we don't tell her and we all like her kids arrested we all say my mother is amazing but nobody tells her because we just you know presume she knows so Alexa not reminds her every day so this is fun I love this this is the most innovative answer I've had on this question in all interviews so super cool um I have one last question and it's almost the most important one and especially for you because you go to so many conferences like I think last year you might have done like three per month or something so I know at every conference you get stickers so what do you do with all those stickers you know this is the worst question we could finish with because like I don't have an answer to that I actually don't know new with them right because I worked for an agency where I went to really important clients where you couldn't really go with a computer stuck with stickers it just doesn't look good uh the only sticker on my computer is the Microsoft MVP sticker because you know very good for companies to see that so at the moment I still have my my company computer because we're in lockdown and I haven't been able to go to the shop and buy a computer and I also can't see them to give them back their computer and do a changeover so um but I'm so used to having a nice clean computer that I don't even know if I want to put stickers all over it I'm not really that kind of person seems wrong to be honest yeah I was thinking about getting a photo frame unlike just be on my wall I got having a massive one and creating a picture I'm putting them all in there so they're all in a box I don't have an answer I don't know what I'm gonna do keep them yeah okay I'm also not really someone who puts them on their laptops because I have fancy clients to go to you kinda want to look good but also nerdy enough no but I so I did it once and then I got comments from clients and I took them off again and now I just usually grab more at conferences and give them to all my colleagues and actually that seems to be a nice one because people tend to like if they don't get to go to the conference because of learning budgets that year cut stuff like that at least having something like that is it's a nice extra yeah so that's the one thing I do but like I have a lot of colleagues in a big office that's not something you have at least not now next we'll have it but just not now although I'm sure like you know people would love for me to send them some nook stickers for you so maybe when we can get out of lockdown yeah listen this was great thank you so much for the interview I mean we always have a lot of fun when we when we see each other now we have lockdown we do it in a virtual way so thanks again no worries it was great being here thank you thanks so much [Music]